Re: The Chatterbox Thread

[Kathryn Lacey]

Ugh... I'm actually not surprised at that as an average. Honestly, people lie a lot, so even that average could be false.

Anyway, the guy who took my virginity boasted over eighty women, but I don't know if he's lying or not. I mean... he could have been with all of them. He was attractive, and he had the kind of personality that attracts women to him- though I don't know why. He's not very bright, and he's an asshole... Then again... I almost always seem to be attracted to those types... Go figure... Except now. I've got a good guy, and he doesn't boast a ton of women. I'm actually relieved that he doesn't have this huge list because I don't feel quite so insecure about it. I think the sex is better for that, too- or maybe he's just a better lover in general. XD

Now that I've slept with two different guys, I find myself wishing I hadn't lost my virginity to the first one. It's not like I didn't love him, but I should have had better foresight. I love the second, too. I don't think I could ever bring myself to have sex if I don't love someone. It just feels wrong to me ((though I think I can understand how others could do it)). I honestly hope that I don't end up having sex with any more people after this. I'd like to keep my number as small as possible.

Also, I don't think I would allow a marriage just because of pregnancy if I was in that position. I don't think it's wrong if others do it, I'm just seriously afraid of regretting it... or having him regret it and later resent me for forcing him to get married just because we weren't careful enough. Plus, I'd have to be absolutely certain that the guy loved me because my past experience has let me know that just because you love someone doesn't mean they love you, too. I also know that just because they may love me then, doesn't mean they can't fall out of love. Likewise, just because someone gets me pregnant, doesn't mean they're going to love me even if they love the child.

I'm just going to play it safe and hope never to get pregnant. Kids aren't something for which I'm suited at all. I may feel differently when my biological clock begins to tick, but for now I'm just going to avoid the issue.

Kalon, I think I'm going to have to agree with Ryona on this. I do believe that sex should be an intimate bond, but I know not all people feel that way. Besides, just because someone has had sex with more than one person doesn't mean they can't form the bond with different people if their emotions are attached with it. Like I said earlier, I knew a guy who slept with a lot of different women. However, he told me that it feels different in a better way to have sex with someone when he loved them. It's not like you lose anything just because you've been with others. You just don't gain anything- except maybe STD's and such- by being promiscuous.

[Kalon Ordona II]

I think Ryona misunderstood what I was saying. It's not that you can't form bonds to someone else if you've already formed one; it's just that it becomes harder, because a bit of you is attached to the other person. You are forever bonded to the person, I think, on some level no matter what. It can become smaller or less significant over time if you've moved on, but I don't think it ever goes away.
That's what I meant by the partitions analogy. As I said: that's what I would say. Whether that is the way it is is a separate issue.

[Gadreille]

I understood, and I still stand by what I say. Though you may want to be more clear in future discussions because your use of "you" and "soul" implies a very different meaning.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Ohh, I get it now. Don't make it sound like an absolute statement? I see what you mean; can easily be taken the wrong way.

[Gadreille]

Yea

[The Melancholy Spirit]

Hmm, I don’t foresee kids in my future either. Children freak me out, severely, and I also see them as a burden as well. Yes, I admit that sounds selfish on the latter part but it is the way I feel. Marriage is also not something I foresee in my future. Quite frankly, I don’t believe it a necessity in the first place and the pressure that has been placed unto people through religion, culture, and so forth annoys me. That and marriage has always, and still has, different meanings depending on where you’re from. Here in the States we find it odd, but in many places marriage has nothing to do with love at all.

I’m also not a traditional person at all really. There isn’t a holiday I celebrate like most people do, aside from Christmas but I celebrate that in a very nostalgic way. The tree (sign of fertility) and the lights (candles, fertility/life) because they are rooted from the Germanic culture when they celebrated Yule; I do not like the exchange of presents though. The only reason I participate with my immediate family is because my mother was deprived of it starting at a young age (she had a very horrible childhood) so I understand why it is important to her.

So, when it comes to marriage I look at it as something that isn’t important at all. If I feel strongly enough toward someone that I can truly say I want to spend my life with her, then that is all that matters and I’ll take things day by day. Not saying that it is important for everyone out there to have the ceremony/celebration, the ring, the document and everything but it is too a good number. Personally I find them to be trivial things that aren’t needed to truly show how you feel about someone or to show your dedication. This among many other things might be why I’ve been single my entire life. ~laughs~

As for getting married because of a pregnancy, I’m quite against that unless the people are really sure they can handle it. A child with a single parent is going to be a hell of a lot better off in the long run than a child surrounded by constant tension, arguments, and possibility violence.

[Gadreille]

I think that you make very good points regarding marriage. I'm very lucky to have gotten a storybook romance...fell in love, celebrated it, had a child because I wanted to...

Now I feel out of place

Sorry I can't elaborate...I'm supposed to be paying attention in class...

[The Melancholy Spirit]

Nah, I understand why people would want to celebrate it and everything. Not condemning anyone for it, just saying why it isn’t for me. Actually, I’m happy for you that you were able to be lucky with such a thing. To be honest, I’ve never been the kind of person to celebrate things or even tolerate being in the spotlight. ‘Tis one reason I continue to think I couldn’t handle being in a band, especially as a vocalist.

For me, if I want to celebrate the emotions I have for someone I want to celebrate it with them and only them. I don’t have any desire to display it to the people around me because. Maybe it is just because I’m a very private person, or perhaps I am just that selfish. Could be a combination of the two or something completely different for all I know.

If anything, I condemn the importance placed on marriage in general. If it is what people want, more power to them.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Yeah, I don't like the way marriage has been institutionalized with lisences and things. As if a person needs permission from the government to get married. I see marriage as the promise, not the proof. It's pledging your lives to one another, and having people witness the union. Many people nowadays, it seems to me, only do it because they think they're supposed to. "That's just what people do," type of thing.

[The Melancholy Spirit]

Indeed, but for a long time it has always been that way really. I mean, even before this country was ever founded marriage was used as a morality thing, also in politics as well. Pretty much it is has always been corrupt; it just goes through times when it is more or less corrupted. Thankfully some people get married because they have a clear head and want to do it, not because of any sort of obligation. Granted, there are people who do really love each other and want to get married who just happen to do it after they’ve sired a child. Nothing wrong with that, but to feel obligated to join n the union just because of the child is wrong. Look around at nature and witness how many creatures are raised by a single parent.

As for the promise thing, I understand why it is important to a lot of people. It isn’t to me though because I think if you actually care enough about the person, have the dedication, the support and everything then you shouldn’t need the official promise of. After all, life could end at any moment. I’d rather promise to be with them as long as physically possible. A promise that together we take one day at a time and enjoy each other in the moment, while we can. The future is unknown, so live in the moment and uphold that promise every day rather than acknowledge the ‘promise’ of being with them in twenty years.

[Kathryn Lacey]

I completely understand your views, Melancholy, on those things though I don't completely share them.

I love gift giving holidays. I think everyone can benefit from a gift, even if it's on a holiday. They make people feel good, and when someone thinks of another person enough to find or make a gift for them, that's an extra feel-good thought. Of course... Halloween- a non gift-giving holiday- is actually my favorite because I love to dress up as something/someone other than myself once a year. I tend to do elaborate things that don't really come from Wal-Mart.

Anyway...

I do think marriage should be about love between clear headed people who are ready for it. I do dislike how it's become like an obligation between people. I love my friend, Laura, but she sort of pressured Patrick into getting engaged. She wanted to be married so badly, and the fact that her dad got remarried and her sister got married just increased her idea that she should get married so soon. They were going to at least have a long engagement, but they decided they wanted to get married before Patrick's uncle dies from his cancer, so it's been rushed to April. I just wish she hadn't had the idea in her head that she had to get married so soon. She and Patrick are definitely in love, but I think they should have waited a little longer first.

I would, personally, love to be a wife someday. I'm kind of afraid of being given symbols of promise, though... That guy about whom I spoke in the beginning actually went so far as to give me a promise ring, and he immediately regretted it. It's like... his giving me a promise like that made him rethink everything, and he decided he didn't want to be with me after all, and we broke up shortly after that.

I'm glad we broke up now, but it took like... three years to get over him... Now I see him as he is, and I know we never would have really worked in the long run. Ugh... I just wish I hadn't wasted so many years pining over him. I guess it didn't help that he strung me along for two of those years. Meh... He's happy now with his pregnant fiancé, and I'm happy with my lover, so everything worked out well. Jonathan is better suited to me by far.

However, I think even if I ended up with someone who didn't want to get married, I would like to at least have a handfasting ceremony. It's basically like an unofficial marriage that lasts for a year and a day. I especially would want that because I've learned that even a small symbol like a ring can make someone rethink what they want, and I figure a year and a day isn't that long to be tied to someone, and it would give us a chance to determine whether we really want to spend the rest of our lives together.

Actually, I think it's a better idea to go through the hand fasting first even if the guy does want to get married I want to do that because it's an excellent test of how well a marriage would be if it happened.

Personally, I don't want to be married for the hype. I want to be married because I think I could be a good wife, and I like having that attachment and that symbol that binds us. I'm also a little possessive. Not to the point that I'm jealous of every girl that even looks at my lover or any girl that hangs out with him. I just want a closed relationship where my other women don't have the same access as I do. Often times, a ring will deter another woman who wants a guy for reasons other than friendship, so that helps.

Ryona, I think you're really lucky that you got the whole story book deal. I honestly would love to have that same sort of deal, but I don't think it's going to be quite so simple for me.

[The Melancholy Spirit]

I’m against the giving-gifts traditions because, especially with Christmas, people often have no idea how any of it truly got started and once again it has a lot to do with obligations and blind traditions. For instance, Christmas used to be a complete party holiday. Adults getting drunk, having free sex, and so forth. It was even banned in England during the 17th (I believe) century; wasn’t until sometime during America that it became more family oriented, same thing with Halloween (which became more child oriented eventually). Of course, Santa Claus and such has pretty much always been a commercial thing. From the very beginning when the concept first came into circulation it was corrupted. I don’t care if people do these things really. I just don’t like partaking in them is all, but if I care about someone enough and feel they have a good reason to do it then I will; an example being my mother with Christmas and the exchanging of gifts.

I mean, I understand and respect people who want to give a gift to someone to show them the caring and appreciation factors in the relationship (whatever it is) but I don’t like doing it on holidays myself. If I truly feel like giving something to someone I would rather give it to them out of nowhere, just any normal day. And that is how I would rather receive a gift. The impact is much deeper that way, for me.

A hand fasting ceremony I could handle probably, but not a full on marriage. And in terms of rings, I’m cool with that but I don’t want anything to do with these traditional things. I’d rather my significant other wear a claddagh ring than what is typically seen as an engagement or wedding ring in this country. As for myself, I’d rather just wear any Celtic designed ring that she gave to me. I like rings anyway, so if she truly wanted us to wear rings as a symbol and I loved her enough I could handle it… just as long as the rings aren’t overly fancy and so forth. Simple is the way to go for me.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Yeah, marriage has become mostly just a "level" in a relationship. I mean, I look at movies and TV and school and clubs, etc etc, and I see a messed up formula for relationships that American culture tries to sell us. And it goes something like this.
Step 1: Go meet someone.
Step 2: If you like them, have sex.
Step 3: If you still like them, move in together.
Step 4: If you still like them, get married.
Step 5: If you stop liking them at any point, return to Step 1.

I'm not saying any of you believe this; in fact, I'm betting on the opposite. This method statistically does not work.
If we go back in time, when divorce rates were a lot lower. What did they do different? Here's the way it appears to me.
Step 1: Go meet someone.
Step 2: If you like them, get to know them.
Step 3: If you come to love them romantically, find out if all your friends and family like them. If they don't like the person as much as you do, there's probably a reason why. Also, if you stop liking the person at any point up till now, don't offer or accept a proposal for marriage.
Step 4: If you've determined that the person you love is of good character, able to make a commitment, and you two are both love with each other, get married.
Step 5: After you're married, please have sex and become united. And maybe have children.
Step 6: If you stop liking your partner at any point after marriage, fix the problem and stay together like you promised. Because, of course, you only promised in the first place because you wanted to spend the rest of your life with that person.

That's a much better formula, I think.
But an even better one than that, I would say, is one that involves God. With God comes accountability; with accountability comes a powerful motivation to overcome the inevitable bumps in the road. God helps us overcome human nature. Human nature = self gratification. Self gratification brings emptiness; just look at money, power, fame, free sex, and addictions. So if all those are bad, and all those are from human nature, what do you get when you go against human nature? Empathy, liberty, humility, love, health. So going against human nature brings the good things in life, the ones that bring true happiness, not momentary gratification. So we have to try to go against human nature somehow. How do we do that? Willpower? Ask anyone; it doesn't work very well. We need something bigger to help. Then we can love our partner on a higher level, and be less likely to abandon them if they're not gratifying us.

Of course, all that is from a Christian world-view. If there's no higher purpose, then we don't need to go against human nature in the first place, unless we feel like it.
Even if things like evolution are true, though, we should still be rising above our animalistic instincts. We're higher beings; we should be living our lives for the betterment of others as well as ourselves. Selflessness. Putting the other before yourself. I think that's what true love is. Speaking romantically, we should love our partner enough to want to be giving to them, not taking from them.

There's a bit in a movie that goes something like, "The more of your heart you give to someone else, the fuller it gets." I embrace that belief, insofar as it applies to people of good character.

[The Melancholy Spirit]

Eh, I have to disagree on the part about willpower. I think those who put faith in themselves rather than a higher power can find the willpower to do such things. There are some people who need faith in a higher power to live, to find happiness and so forth. There are some who don’t. And there are also those who are devote in faith that fail time and again at true relationships when you can find those who are atheist who find a relationship and have it last. It just comes down to the people involved, really.

I also disagree about the human nature thing. Our species is a social one; therefore we naturally have empathy for others. There is variety in life though, so not everyone is going to have the same ideals or moral code, or even basic instincts. Some basic instincts are altered because of genetic history or things that we endear during childhood.

Personally, being that I am a pantheist I don’t believe in a higher purpose or power. I feel it is up to us to give our life a higher purpose, one that suits who we are and what we wish to do with our lives. Some might make that purpose being a devote housewife. Some may make it into a life in a third world country helping others. Other people may make their purpose one that allows them to help those people they can, the people they surround themselves with. It really depends. I believe in finding the personal truth for the individual, and that will always be different.

I also believe in balance above all else. Thus, I do not believe in pure selflessness or pure selfishness. A person should have a proper balance. They should be selflessness enough to care for others, to offer support and nourishment, love, empathy and so forth. But they should not be blind to their own desires either. These desires do not have to fall under things commonly seen as sinful either. Self gratification does not always bring emptiness. For some people self gratification is being a devote housewife, yet this could be seen as selflessness. Where then do you draw the line, for they are gaining self-gratification which has been stated to bring only emptiness, but they are gaining it through selflessness that was stated to be the key to true happiness. And in terms of loving our partner enough to be giving to them, but not taking… what if we are the only one giving?

I think willpower is the best thing we have. Some people obtain it because they look to themselves for the strength; other people obtain willpower through the divine. Either way, it is still willpower.

This is just the way I look at it, and in no means do I claim mine to be the right way. I do love these sorts of discussions though.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Well like I say, there is truth everywhere if you just dig deep enough. You make some good points.
I, too, love these discussions. It's probably one of the most important ways to spend one's time. Otherwise one might end up just floating along though life, accomplishing little.

[Gadreille]

I don't believe having God in your marriage is better than one without. There are plenty of rotten marriages out there that are with God, and without. It makes no difference, at least no statistically proven difference. And it certainly hasn't made a difference in my life. My atheist parents have been together going on 25 years, still going strong. I hope that Silvone and I match that, and I imagine we will, though I cannot say for certain.

Your argument is based upon 'human nature=self satisfaction", and that we need to rise above human nature. But rising above 'human nature' has brought as much harm as good. Indeed, there are some instances where trying to be moral has ended in inhumane acts; religious wars, discriminatory laws to promote a certain way of thinking, etc.

Also, it is not necessarily true that human nature is self satisfaction. That is not a proven fact, merely a point of view. Some could argue that human nature is survival, and survival entails producing and raising children until they are sexually mature and able to reproduce themselves. That, though biologically selfish, is a selfless act.

I believe that it is not about God, but about you. Do good, always. Not what someone (whether it is a Higher Being or your boss at work) tells you to do, but what will do no harm. Easier said than done, but it is a personal law that I live by. So, when I met Silvone, it wasn't about a law, or a God, or a series of steps that should be taken. It was about love, and compatibility, support and functionality. We are two halves of a whole, and where we don't meet we compromise. We do our best to do no harm, to each other and to others. We don't need God to tell us to be this way. We are this way because we are humane. We have Empathy, liberty, humility, love, health. We are all of these things, and yet no one is enforcing this upon us.

I love how Melancholy puts it: willpower. It is my belief that some people need a higher being to follow, and that is fine. However, I have enough willpower to do good on my own, with nothing but my own morality to guide me. I will also end by stealing his words:

This is just the way I look at it, and in no means do I claim mine to be the right way. I do love these sorts of discussions though.

Edit: I also agree with the Balance portion of your statement! I live by balance...Sometimes I wonder where the line is between balance and wishy washy lol

[Kalon Ordona II]

Well, as to that... I can't prove God makes a difference without proving there's a God in the first place, and that's not what we were really discussing. ^^
None of us are trying to argue or force our opinions on one another. This is more about sharing our beliefs than it is about debating which is right.
Assuming any of them are right.

( ...ooh, that's a good question!... Can any or all be true? I'll have to think about that one. )

[The Melancholy Spirit]

Hmm, I like what you said Ryona. Though, there are a couple points I disagree on. One being the ‘two parts of a whole’ piece, for it is my belief that we are all one whole as a single individual and that if someone can not feel complete (a whole, per se) without someone in their life than they have no right being with that person. Another way of putting it, to want someone in your life is great, but to feel that you need someone in your life (I think) is what happens when you feel incomplete or, a part of a whole. But if you approach a relationship already feeling complete than you have more to offer that person, and likewise they have more to offer you if they’re entering the relationship feeling complete. Again a difference in our beliefs, whatever works for the individual really. Probably it is more perspective than anything.

The other thing is the simplistic ideal of doing no harm. The way I see it, everything is connected and even in an attempt to do no harm we may just inspire such an event. Our actions ripple through the world (through the Universe) affecting everything, just as the actions of someone we never knew existed could be effecting us this very moment. Thus, I think it best to do what one feels would better reflect through all of existence rather than what would seem to, at a face value level, do no harm. Sometimes harmful things must be done or said for lessons to be learned or for something else to be gained, even if in a selfless act. This is probably just as much a perspective viewpoint as the last though.

I guess that it is really less of a disagreement but an alternative perspective then, with those two things at least. ~chuckles~

[Kathryn Lacey]

See, my thing is that I lack a lot of money, and I have this issue where if someone gives me a gift, I feel the need to get them one in return, and I don't always have the money to do that. Gift giving holidays allow me to have specific times for which to save my money, and no one else is allowed to give me gifts except on gift giving holidays, so I can usually give gifts to those who give me gifts. It takes a lot of stress off of me, even if the random gift would be better. Besides, it's something to which to look forward in bleak months. I love the look on people's faces when I give them something they will really enjoy. I already have the next three gifts for my lover planned, and I'm really excited because I'm going to be with him on Christmas to watch him open his gift, and I am certain he's going to love it.

Oh... I was talking to someone, and he told me that having the trial hand fasting before the actual marriage would really kill the romance in it, and I hadn't thought about that. I had just been thinking about my paranoia, but I guess the engagement is the time in which people have to think about if they really want to go through with it, so the hand fasting before a marriage would be unnecessary. I guess I'm just paranoid ever since I was given a promise ring then dumped soon after...

Yeah... I like traditional rings, but I seriously hate those gaudy, five inch rocks I see occasionally. If I ever wear a wedding ring, I want it to be simple yet elegant and small. I'm not a fan of big jewelry. Small pendants, small stones, small bands, etc. are the way to go with me. Though I like Celtic knots, I'm not a fan of the visual aesthetics of the claddagh. I know it means something nice, but it's just... unappealing to me... Kind of like how I hate yellow gold...

Kalon, I think where I went wrong with my first lover was that... we followed steps one and two of your first failtastic steps, but with my current lover, we've sort of incorporated the two, and we're doing very well now.

Basically, I think a good way to end up with someone with whom you're probably not as compatible as you thought is to refrain from both having sex with them and living with them until you're married. I think it's really important to try both of those things before marriage to know if the two can really get along living in the same house, and to make sure they're sexually compatible. I know a lot of people don't like to think that it's important, but sex is important in a relationship. It's just as important as mental and emotional compatibility. I would honestly hate to marry someone only to realize one month into the relationship that living with them drives me insane and the sex it's consistently unappealing.

However, I think it's important to find someone, get to know them on many different mental and emotional levels, discover if you like them, and possibly fall in love. Then I think it's a good idea to have sex if the two are in love. If all is good up to then, try moving in together and see how that works. If all emotions are still in tact and everything is going well, possibly consider marriage if that's what suits you. Of course, all of this should happen over considerable amounts of time. I don't mean accomplishing all of this within a month.

I guess it's kind of important for friends and family to like someone, but it's not everything. I mean, it's nice, but sometimes a person is disliked for the stupidest things. Like... I have ancestors who got married... A sixteen year old woman who only spoke French and a forty year old man who only spoke German, and they never had a single fight in their entire marriage except when her mother called him a pig because she didn't like him. He recognized the word because of the market, and yeah. They had kids together and had a very loving marriage aside from that one fight.

I'm just lucky enough that my mom approved of Jonathan before she died, and when he visited me, Laura and Patrick liked him, too. Of course, it helped that he appealed to Patrick's gamer side and Laura's romantic/literature/musical sides. My mom never met him. She just liked him because I seemed happy with him. My grandma approves of him, too, but she really wants to meet him. She was in Pennsylvania taking care of my mom when he came to visit.

Also, I think it's kind of bullshit in my mind ((more power to those who feel differently)) that love is all giving and no taking. I think it's important to have balance in the relationship. Like Melancholy said, "What if you're the only one giving?"

I also agree on what was said of willpower by Melancholy, and the idea that one needs to be whole alone before they can truly give in a relationship. However, I don't agree that just because someone isn't whole doesn't mean they don't deserve someone who can help them feel whole. I think that's a pretty powerful judgment. Who are we to say who deserves whom after all?

[Gadreille]

Hmm, I like what you said Ryona. Though, there are a couple points I disagree on. One being the ‘two parts of a whole’ piece, for it is my belief that we are all one whole as a single individual and that if someone can not feel complete (a whole, per se) without someone in their life than they have no right being with that person. Another way of putting it, to want someone in your life is great, but to feel that you need someone in your life (I think) is what happens when you feel incomplete or, a part of a whole. But if you approach a relationship already feeling complete than you have more to offer that person, and likewise they have more to offer you if they’re entering the relationship feeling complete. Again a difference in our beliefs, whatever works for the individual really. Probably it is more perspective than anything.

The other thing is the simplistic ideal of doing no harm. The way I see it, everything is connected and even in an attempt to do no harm we may just inspire such an event. Our actions ripple through the world (through the Universe) affecting everything, just as the actions of someone we never knew existed could be effecting us this very moment. Thus, I think it best to do what one feels would better reflect through all of existence rather than what would seem to, at a face value level, do no harm. Sometimes harmful things must be done or said for lessons to be learned or for something else to be gained, even if in a selfless act. This is probably just as much a perspective viewpoint as the last though.

I guess that it is really less of a disagreement but an alternative perspective then, with those two things at least. ~chuckles~

Well, I can see what you mean about being whole before you meet someone. I think it is a good thing to strive for. Alas, it could not have happened for me because without child, I did not feel whole. That was my own personal issue, and no amount of self-correcting would ever have fixed me, short of artificial insemination

And I do understand why harm is done, it is just a personal path I have taken. The only time I will bring harm (purposely) is in defense of my self, my family, or my property.

Edit 1:

.. I can't prove God makes a difference without proving there's a God in the first place, and that's not what we were really discussing.

You can! You don't have to prove His existence to see that He changes the lives of many many people in the world...just look at everyone who lives their life by His rules. Whether or not He is truly there is one question...but you don't have to know the answer. That is why there is faith And you can surely do a study to see if faith reflects upon the longevity and overall happiness of a marriage!

Edit 2: Kathryn, I think I agree with just about everything you have said.

[The Melancholy Spirit]

I understand that about the money issue. Personally, I don’t like people spending very much money on anything for me. But, then in terms of material possessions there isn’t really anything I care to have aside from music, books, and occasionally a game. Yes, I am one of those out-dated people who still buy the albums instead of downloading songs. ~laughs~ Even then though, I’m pretty cheap in some aspects of things. Agalloch released an EP that was limited to only two thousand copies. So far, I’ve yet to find someone selling it for under fifty dollars (used). I can’t bring myself to pay that much, even though I love that EP. Now, if it were signed by the band… maybe.

Hmm, it is a good point. Though I think it might have more to do with how things are approached. If the people got married two months after the trail of hand fasting then yes, I could see how that would slay the romance of things. However, if they endeared that ‘trial’ period and still felt strongly about getting married but didn’t do so right away, rather waited a couple years or more it could still have a strong sense of romance to it. Also, it might just depend on the couple as well. Some people might see it as a romantic celebration akin to an anniversary or something; possibly.

I tend to wear a decent amount of jewelry myself, though none of it is very large. The largest thing I have is the bracelet I made out of a string of beads from the curtain in my doorway. Sadly I can’t really wear rings though, thanks to the way my fingers are shaped. That really, really sucks. ~sighs~

Well, I never meant that they didn’t deserve the person. I think they could still deserve someone who makes them feel whole, but I don’t think they should commit to a relationship if they can’t feel whole without that significant other because then it could very easily become a situation where they are not giving as much as they are receiving into the relationship. Apologies for the misunderstanding, probably an error on my part with the wording I chose.

Yes, Ryona is correct. God does make a difference, whether he exists or not. Every divine entity that is offered worship makes a difference in the world despite the subjectivity of their true existence.

Hmm, I think that it was having a child that fulfilled a purpose for you life, rather than making you feel whole as a person. I could be wrong though, very easily. It just seems to me that a child is more of a purpose people give to themselves more than anything.

Sometimes tells me that throughout this discussion it has become more and more obvious why I’m still single, heheh.

[Gadreille]

No, you are right, it did fulfill a purpose. It's just that having a child is more than one single aspect; a purpose in life is not the only thing Theoden means to me. It is much more complex than that.

I was going to school full time and working, but I felt lost. Apart from my family, who I am very close to, there wasn't anything in life I truly loved. I found Silvone, and we shared similar outlooks on life...and we became companions. We needed each other, for different reasons, but needed each other all the same. We were each in a situation that we could not come out whole on our own.

When we married, and had a child, it fulfilled many things. He had a solid family, where he had grown up with none, and I had a child, a person to devote my love and devotion to. Yes, he is my purpose in life, and yes, he does make me whole. My intro post may shed some light on my point of view.

I don't think there is anything off about what you believe, and I don't think it is a cause of why you are single. You are single, ultimately, because you want to be (I think). You haven't found someone worth the pains and frustrations of a relationship! Maybe you will, maybe you won't. If you ever long for companionship, you may decide to alter or put aside some of your beliefs in order to make it work, but what's the rush?

I know I use 'you' a lot in there and I know that I am by no means an expert, just sharing my ideas on the subject...

Off subject. When is Eternal Camaraderie going to start?

[Kalon Ordona II]

You can! You don't have to prove His existence to see that He changes the lives of many many people in the world...just look at everyone who lives their life by His rules.

Hm, you have a point, Ryona. Alrighty, then. In that case, I would say that, wherever "Christian" marriages do fail, it is a result of not following the "rules." Or, if they "involved God" only just because they're 'supposed to' and not so much because they're really doing it right, then they're not really involving God in the first place. If the "Christian" ones fall away, it's because they're NOT involving God as they should. Just saying God is there in the relationship doesn't mean much; it has to actually be true. Nobody can follow the "rules" perfectly; trying to do it oneself is almost doomed to failure. The Bible says "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life"; that means trying to follow the literal rules on your own will be counterproductive and possibly kill a relationship. It's when God is present in one's heart (whether it's only a psychological shift or whether it's a real God) that one can internalize the spirit of what God has to say, and not just try to do the "rules" on one's own.

Also, I agree with what you said about defending your life, liberty and property. Some people, I think--even a lot of Christians I know--take 'do no harm' too far and claim they would just not fight no matter what.

@ Kathryn: I'm not saying it's impossible to have any good result when two people do it the "failtastic" way, but I do say that it's stacking the deck against people. It's setting them up for failure because it causes many couples to start out with the wrong motivation. If it's working for you, it's a proof of the strength of character present in you both. It's still a bad system, in my opinion; you've just beat it, is all.

I agree with Melancholy that one should always try to better oneself as much as possible, so that they have the strength of character, the ability to commit, and the ability to put the other first. Although, I also agree with Kathryn that one shouldn't wait to be "whole" before entering in. It depends on how one defines "whole." If it means having what it takes for the relationship, then yes, wait for that. If it means you have no more problems, then no, absolutely do not wait for that, because it'll never happen.

I also agree with Kathryn about family. The point is to have an objective opinion, but if they're not truly objective about it, then they're not doing their job properly.

I'm not sure I agree, however, with 'sexual compatibility.' All that is is a skill, in my opinion, and that can be learned. All couples have to do is talk to each other. If they truly love one another enough to agree to marriage, it shouldn't be a problem. Mind you: it is... but it shouldn't be. Communication. As far as anatomy goes... yes, there are some ways two people might not get as much pleasure during sex as two people who match better physically, but that's hardly important compared to a loving relationship. There are puh-lenty of ways to work around a less-than-perfect physical match.

Regarding the give/take: yes, one does get things from a good relationship, like healing, love, and growth, but those things come the most when both people are giving. I guess one could say the 'getting' bit of a relationship is either accepting (good), or taking (bad). As I said, though, I only believe in the 'giving to get' principle insofar as it applies to people of good character. When you have one person that is giving and another that is only taking, that's an abusive relationship, regardless of the degree to which it has escalated and regardless of intent. To people in such a situation: try to resolve it first, but get out if it can't be resolved. Sometimes it's an easy fix, but sometimes it's a truly bad situation.

---

As to gift-giving, , I'm somewhat like Kathryn in that I want to exchange gifts rather than just giving or receiving. I'm pretty easy as far as what gifts I receive; I can usually find a use for any gift, even if it's olive green and yellow knitted socks. xD For giving back, I also have little money, so I often end up drawing them a pretty picture. ^^

[Kathryn Lacey]

Ah, well, I don't mind spending a lot of money on a gift for someone or myself as long as it's not overly expensive. I mean, I work a minimum wage, part time job, so I can't exactly go around buying one hundred dollar gifts all the time. That's why I also ask friends and such to refrain from doing that, too. I actually even had to fight Jonathan on that point for months because he actually does have an amazing job and can afford it, but it would still make me feel so terrible if he bought me a super expensive gift that wouldn't benefit both of us- and example being his paying for our visits. Visits benefit both of us, so I don't feel so terrible about accepting it. I don't mind accepting gifts if I can repay them somehow. ^^_^^

You know, Kalon, I'm not picky about gifts, either. I tend to deter people from buying me things that I'll never use like nick-nacks in favor of things I will use like movies, books, msusic, articles of clothing, etc. as long as they're not too expensive. I don't really have any crafting skills or artistic skills, so I can't just draw my friends pretty pictures and be done with it. My friend, Laura, is very crafty with a sewing machine, so she tends to make gifts for people. I envy that ability.

Well, Melancholy, when I told this person my idea, he viewed it like this:

Person #1: "My love, will you marry me?"
Person #2: "Yes. I would love to marry you, but we should have a trial period first!"
Person #1: "Uh..."

In that way, I can see it being a romance killer. Besides, if the person isn't a fickle asshole, the trial period is unnecessary. Now, I could maybe renewing vows or something with a hand fasting ceremony.

I used to wear a lot of jewelry, but it feels uncomfortable to wear so much jewelry all the time even if I love the way it looks. Now, the most I'll wear is three rings, three necklaces, and a couple of bracelets. I usually just go with the quartz crystal pendant that Jonathan bought for me these days. Sometimes I'll wear my three rings. I'm really in love with thumb rings, so I wear that one often. I haven't worn much more than my watch as of late, though.

Aww. I can't imagine not being able to wear rings. ^;_;^ That's very unlucky. At least you can compensate with other kinds of jewelry.

Oh, I haven't said anything about the religious points because I'm afraid of offending people ((yes, I actually stopped myself from being brash and offensive for once, but it's because religion is a super touchy topic)), but I wanted to say this: I think that all religions are helpful to people. I hate how people condemn organized and/or disorganized religion just because a handful of people are assholes about their beliefs. I think that religion gives people something in which to believe. It's something toward which to strive. It also succeeds in bringing people together under a common interest. If people are helped by believing in something greater than themselves, I think that's wonderful. Some people really need something like that in their lives. Not everyone, but some.

After my first serious relationship, I felt broken and... well, not whole at all. I dated a couple different guys after that, but I never felt whole with them, and I didn't really expect to feel whole just because I had a lover in my life. When I met Jonathan, he helped me to feel whole again. It was with his help that I was able to get over the first one and move on. However, I know without Jonathan, I could still be whole despite the depression that would settle without him. I think it's important for people who can't feel whole without someone to work on making themselves whole despite having someone in their lives. I mean, I don't think I would have felt whole without Jonathan's help in the beginning, but I had to work to take that wholeness and separate it from him during the course of our relationship.

What I'm trying to say is that sometimes someone just needs a catalyst to help prompt them toward feeling whole, but they shouldn't just allow the catalyst to fill that void; they should work at filling that void with themselves once they've had their incentive.

My mother once told me that having children does fulfill something in life for women. I don't know if she was just echoing the thoughts of other women or not because she really wasn't the greatest of mothers. She had her moments, but she was extremely neglectful of my little brothers, and I don't know if that's because her husband just undermined her authority to the point where she just gave up or because she really didn't know how to be a mother. I just know that I don't understand how someone can feel fulfilled when they don't even actually take care of their children the way they should.

It makes me skeptical about ever feeling fulfilled by having children in my life. I don't think I could be good enough to them. I'll let that soul have a better chance at growing up with a better family rather than my own.

Ryona's right about your relationship status. You're not single because of your beliefs. You're single because that's your choice. Besides, when you do find someone worthy, I'm sure you'll be willing to tweak your beliefs at least a little. I know I really condemn the idea of having children for myself, but when I was with my first serious lover, I knew he wanted kids, and I began to think that maybe having a child wouldn't be so bad. Of course, as soon as we broke up, I was infinitely happy that I had never gotten pregnant and such. It would have been a disaster. Anyway, the point is that some of my strong beliefs were changed because having someone I loved put things into another perspective.

Kalon, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm utilizing both sets of steps in my relationship. We just aren't waiting for marriage to have sex, and I honestly think it would be a terrible idea- hypothetically- if we ever got married before moving in together to test how well we work in that way.

Also, I think you're wrong about sexual compatibility. It's not just a skill. It is true that one develops skills in the bedroom, but that's not all it is. It also concerns a state of mind, and sometimes states of mind can't be changed just because a couple communicates what they want out of sex. I've proven this to myself. With my first lover, we communicated about sex a lot, and I was really lucky that he was someone who listened to me and everything. However, the sex just... wasn't very good. It wasn't that he wasn't good at what he was doing because he was very good and attentive. I just... didn't feel satisfied enough, and I know that no matter how much we communicated, it wasn't going to change. I had just thought it was my own body being made of fail, but I realize that's not the case now that I have my new lover. It's altogether better.

It could be argued that three years has matured my body, but I honestly don't think that was the major case for me. I think this is why it's important to test the waters before committing to the swim across the ocean. Also, just because you enjoy someone's company, doesn't mean you'll have the proper chemistry to have a romantic relationship.

[Gadreille]

Biological chemistry does exist; it is not just about skill. That is why I feel it is unwise to marry into a relationship without testing the chemistry; or you may have bonded yourself into a life situation that you regret.

But that is just a personal choice, if you want to take the chance at not knowing, that is fine too.

However, I often wonder how many divorces are because of this...By trying to follow 'the rules', perhaps some dig themselves into an unhappy and incompatible relationship, that they stick with for as long as they can until someone with proper chemistry crosses their path, or they just can't stand it anymore...?

[The Melancholy Spirit]

Well, taken into a brash and inconsiderate situation as that I can understand. But really, if the two people talked about a hand fasting trial before full marriage after they were Engaged I think it wouldn't kill the romance nearly as bad, if at all. Of course, once again it depends on the couple involved.

I don’t have a lot of jewelry to wear, but I feel weird without wearing any. Currently wearing the aforementioned bracelet, a necklace a girl gave me after I mentioned it was cool (she was wearing it at the time), and my Nightwish cross.

When I was sixteen I went through something traumatizing… wasn’t involved in a relationship with the person but, it was devastating. Quite honestly, I don’t bother to go into the details because I simply don’t discuss things with hardly anyone and when I do, never openly to public like this. However, that was the incident that spawned the creation for something Ryona is (I think) working on for me at this moment. I was utterly broken from it, didn’t even want to talk to anyone, go back to school or anything. Going to school helped a lot though, being around friends and so forth. Over time I came back whole again and a much better person (I think) for having gone through incident. I understand what you mean about a catalyst though, the only problem I have with it is that I’ve seen too many people do exactly what you said not to, letting the catalyst fill the void.

I’m not exactly single by choice, per se, but a lack of anyone I care to try and form a romantic relationship with. There was one person, a year younger than me but by the time I even realized anything it was about two weeks before I graduated and she was already in a relationship so I never said anything. The next year I went back to the school a couple times to hang out with a few people I still friends with (specifically her) and by that time found out she had left the other guy (a complete idiot) and was then going out with her best friend. One of those days happened to include (what I consider) one of the worst and best moments of my life, one Gunneh loves to mention everywhere (the genuine smile moment he brought up in the picture thread). It is true that some things could change perspective for me, though I remain very skeptical of that. Only time will tell though.

As far as moving in together to test things before marriage, I agree completely with that. Most people don’t realize how much you learn about someone when you’re around them for more than a day. Even something as simple as a weekend road trip can reveal a lot about someone who you might have known for ten years. This is because you see each other at your best and your worst, sometimes with both of you at your worst at the same exact time. If you can survive that, then it is a good sign. If you can’t survive even a week of living together you’d best not get married. It is the same concept (in a way) of becoming a roommate with someone who was a great friend for several years. No matter how well you got along together when hanging out, you might not be able to stomach living with the other person after a month, or even a week.

I would get into the sexual chemistry thing but, I don't think I can go into that without bringing up a debate on theology and history (two subjects I have studied, independently, for years now) so... I won't go there.

[Gadreille]

I was sketching it in class...Surprisingly, the roses are the crappiest part so far...but I will keep doodling it until I feel satisfied, and then I will try and do a nicer version. That is the part I suck at

[The Melancholy Spirit]

Hehe… no worries, I'm not in a rush or anything.

Oh, and I don’t know when the story will start up. Gunneh has yet to touch the OOC that I know of and last time I checked you were the only person that even showed any interest in it.

[Gadreille]

that's odd.

[The Melancholy Spirit]

Of course, after I post that I see a response from someone else in the thread... ~laughs~

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