Re: FOG Book Club

[Gadreille]

I never commented on the last section of The Great Gatsby.

Honestly, I was not surprised when he died. At all. It seemed obvious that whats his face (Tom? I've already forgotten) would give that poor man a lead to Gatsby instead of owning up to his own faults. He and his wife were described perfectly when Nick said that they were passive agressive manipulators. The kind of people I would want no relations with.

I hadn't picked up on the billboard thing, until the very end. I'm not sure if the description was enough until someone said "God is watching us" while staring at it, giving us a literal description. If the story truly is about judgement, it seems to be about the reader's judgement of the characters more than anything else. No one really suffered for their crimes, except Gatsby.

[Kalon Ordona II]

And Daisy, whether or not Tom found out that she was the one driving.
And Myrtle, who got hit by the car.
And her husband, who lost it when she died.
And Tom, who lost Myrtle.

Hm.



In the end, everything got sorted pretty neatly, I thought.
Myrtle died, ending that affair.
And Gatsby died, ending that one, too.
Tom and Daisy get to stay with each other and can hopefully move on with a little more understanding. It did come out that they really did love each other, so hopefully they can build on that properly, now.

I'm not sure what if anything was wrong with Jordan, but there was something off there, too; I just didn't figure out what it was. Maybe she was too independent? There was the comment in the car that she's a bad driver. Still, even though it felt somewhat inevitable, I did feel a little sad when it didn't work out between her and Nick.

When Nick said you can't relive the past, and Gatsby said what're you talking about, of course you can, that told me what the theme was. And this was confirmed by the ending words. Trying to live in the past doesn't work. Trying to relive the past simply cannot work, because you're not the same person you were then and what's gone is gone. Trying to recreate it will end up setting you back, at best, or at worst might have some very untoward consequences.

I'm not quite sure exactly what the final words are supposed to literally be saying, though.

“So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

It seems to me that time bears us forward, into the future, not backward into the past. And yet even as I think of it that way, it seems that yes, actually time is flowing backward with us facing forward. Time is bringing events to us, rather than bearing us along a timeline. I guess I solved that for myself just now, then. Yay for typing things out.

So then yeah, I guess he's saying don't turn the boat around with the current to try to revisit past scenery, or you'll have that much harder a time catching up? You'll be set back and find it difficult to return to the present? A guide, perhaps, against losing your sanity?

So we're supposed to fight to get to the future, to learn from our mistakes in life and grow stronger, strong enough to overcome, more and more, the current of time, to get further and further upstream. Cool.


As for Princess Bride, I don't have it yet, but I've already read it, so I'll comment along with you guys and catch up with the reading when I get the book.

[Gadreille]

I don't think Daisy and Tom paid for their crimes, I think they got off easy by manipulating the situation so that they didn't have to deal with anything. Tom didn't give up Myrtle, who he shouldn't have been with in the first place, she died. Daisy killed her, even if by accident. He never even owned up to having an affair, rather blaming Gatsby for it. And, by blaming Gatsby, he manipulated George into killing him, ending the possiblity of Daisy running off with him. They didn't end their affairs, rekindle their marriage flame and move on. They swept the ugly mess under an ugly rug and ran off.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Well, they didn't yet, but I got the feeling it'd slowly swing in that direction. *shrug*
Daisy did have a lot of guilt about the car. I guess that's not really payment, though, so I see what you're saying. Bad stuff happened to the people, but not the right stuff. No actual closure or restitution was made. They did suffer for it, but not enough to change, is that it?

[Gadreille]

Yea. I mean, I guess they could always change, but as of where we left in the story, they hadn't done any major growing up or made any large sacrifices or changes for the better. Of course they will have the chance to patch up their relationship, but poor Myrtle, George, and Gatsby will never get that opportunity.

[Kathryn Lacey]

I know it's still Friday, but I don't know if I'll have time tomorrow to talk about the first quarter of this book, and I'm supposed to go first, so I'm going to talk about it now.


First, I want to say that this guy cracks me up. My version has two introductions ((one to this edition and one to the 25th edition)) where Goldman talks about how great it was growing up with this story which was supposedly originally written by a man named Morgenstern. He talks about how the original Princess Bride impacted his life, and how he was so honored to have written the abridged version of it. He even talks about going with his grandson to a museum in Florin where there are such things like the six-fingered sword and gloves worn by the real Fezzik the Giant. He talks about how great it was to see these things from such an ancient history after knowing how the biography of it all was told to him as a child.

The thing is that it's all a lie. There is no Florin. There is no Morgenstern. Goldman doesn't have a son and therefore having a grandson born of that son is impossible. He mixes just enough truth into his fantasy that it seems as if it could be real. I was actually enormously confused at first, and I actually had to look this up to make sure it wasn't real because some of it seemed like it could be real ((he used names of real people who are associated with the title like Cary Elwes and Andre the Giant who were actors in the movie)) but others seemed too fantastical, and wouldn't I have heard about something like that anyway?

No. It's not real. It's all made up. This book is entirely his own creation right down to the psychiatrist of a wife and a fattums of a son that he mentions in the beginning of the actual book itself before he gets to the story of the Princess Bride which he pretends to have simply abridged.

I love the story he paints of himself and his made-up family. They're very real and very human, but the fact that I know that they're not real makes it all the more amusing. To think a man would paint himself as so... normal and even a little weak is so fascinating to me, especially as someone who likes to write about strong, heroic characters. I wouldn't want to portray myself in the same light he's portrayed himself, but it works beautifully to me.


Onto the story itself! I find it highly amusing. I loved reading words in this book that I heard almost verbatim in the movie ((which I will re-watch once this is over)), such as the Sicilian constantly using the word "inconceivable" and the Spaniard saying, "I don't think that word means what you think it means." though I believe in the movie he said "do not" which flows better for me - probably because it's what I'm used to hearing.

Anyway, I like reading the little side notes in italics when he diverts from the story to describe something about what Morgenstern has written that he's cut out. Even if it breaks up the story a little, there's always something really amusing about it that doesn't take away even a little from the story itself. It may be because it's made to be a rather simple story that's meant to be funny and entertaining rather than anything overly deep and emotional.

I'm not saying it can't be that way, though. I simply mean that it's meant to be more light hearted.

However, one line that I thought was really awesome and oh-so-true was this, "Do I love you? My God, if your love were a grain of sand, mine would be a universe of beaches!" I can't believe that Buttercup wouldn't be able to comprehend the meaning of that line which was lovely yet mildly insulting toward her at the same time. Aspects of Buttercup make me seriously wonder how Wesley could love her at all. She's kind of an idiot.

Anyway, I'm really excited to continue with this book. For the most part, the movie apparently followed it relatively closely though there are more things in this book than there could have been in the movie. That suits me just fine. ^^_^^

[Kalon Ordona II]

I still don't have the book, but I remember everything you're talking about from my last reading. xD

His making up the whole story on top of the story was hugely hilarious. I too looked it up just in case, even though I was pretty sure he was making it all up. Who does that? It's awesome! xD

In the story itself, I always laugh when he says this or that was or wasn't before such-and-such from the modern world.
And the actual ranks for the most beautiful girl in the world.

Since I saw the movie first, seeing him slam the door in her face was very shocking and very funny.

Everything he comes up with, and then the tone of the writing on top of it, just makes you crack up the whole way through. xD

[Kathryn Lacey]

hahahah I totally agree! When he slammed the door in her face, I was like, "Wait... What? That happened? There has to be a reason for it..."

Did anyone also notice how Goldman wrote that this story took place before there was Europe but after America was known? Too funny!

[Kalon Ordona II]

I know! xD

Here's another example, courtesy of Google Books, though I had to type it all out.

It was dusk when she heard footsteps outside her door. Then a knock. Buttercup dried her eyes. Another knock. "Whoever is that?" Buttercup yawned finally.

"Westley."

Buttercup lounged across the bed. "Westley?" she said. "Do I know any West--oh, Farm Boy, it's you, how droll!" She went to her door, unlocked it, and said, in her fanciest tone, "I'm ever so glad you stopped by. I've been feeling just ever so slummy about the little joke I played on you this morning. Of course you knew I wasn't for a moment serious, or at least I thought you knew, but then, just when you started closing the door I thought for one dreary instant that perhaps I'd done my little jest a bit to convincingly and, poor dear thing, you might have thought I meant what I said when of course we both know the total impossibility of that ever happening."

"I've come to say good-by."

Buttercup's eart bucked, but she still held to fancy. "You're going to sleep, you mean, and you've come to say good night? How thoughtful of you, Farm Boy, showing me that you forgive me for my little morning's tease; I certainly appreciate your thoughtfulness and--"

He cut her off. "I'm leaving."

"Leaving?" The floor began to ripple. She held to the doorframe. "Now?"

"Yes."

"Because of what I said this morning?"

"Yes."

"I frightened you away, didn't I? I could kill my tongue." She shook her head and shook her head. "Well, it's done; you've made your decision. Just remember this: I won't take you back when she's done with you, I don't care if you beg."

He just looked at her.

Buttercup hurried on. "Just because you're beautiful and perfect, it's made you conceited. You think people can't get tired of you, well you're wrong, they can, and she will, besides you're too poor."

"I'm going to America. To seek my fortune." (This was just after America but long after fortunes.)

[Gadreille]

I'm sorry...I keep sitting down to read it, and I can't even get through the introduction. Not because of the story, just life. I'm hoping I can catch up before it's over.

Edit:
I've finally started, read the first two chapters, and plan on catching up this week. The writing is very peculiar, but I'm getting used to it. I think it took me so long to read it because I was determined to read the two introductions by William Goldman. I'm glad I did. I'm also glad that I have not yet seen the movie. I must watch it after I finish the book. Also, I find myself desiring to read the original book...even though it doesn't actually exist!

[Kathryn Lacey]

hahahah I know what you mean, Ryona. It's a really funny book. I love it. I'm excited to re-experience the movie after I finish this book.

So, I totally forgot to tell you guys what I thought of the next section. XD

Ugh... I'm loving this book so much that I've totally read way ahead of where we are. I'll have it finished in no time. Anyway, my thoughts may be a bit short because it's really hard to not give away what I already know. ^x_x^

This section was great! I finished it in no time at all. I loved learning more about Inigo’s and Fezzik’s pasts. They were so interesting and rather amusing. I also loved the battles of skill, strength, and wits between the Man in Black, Inigo, Fezzik, and the Vizzini.

So, I heard that if you write to the address given in the book to get the Reunion scene, they write back saying that it cannot be delivered due to some issues between the publishers and Morgenstern’s estate. The fact that the book gave people something real to do outside of the reading it is hilarious, and it just makes me realize that Goldman’s sense of humor is even bigger than expected. Of course, I don’t know if it’s still happening. The website my book gave me is no longer in existence, and if that isn’t around any more, it’s unlikely they’re still doing the snail mail thing. It would be awesome if it was still going on, but I’m sure it would get expensive and time consuming over time, sending out all of those letters.


For a while, Buttercup seemed a bit more tolerable in this section. I loved how they were reunited. It was amusing and sweet all at once ((even if we didn’t get the actual reunion out of it)). Then they went through the Fire Swamp which was all right. Normally, I really dislike when authors have such crazy schemes of writing about amazingly against-the-odds things succeeding, but the way this book is written, it’s expected and necessary, and it gives insight into who Westley is and how he became as wonderful as he is. I mean, if more people simply knew they would succeed simply because they believed they would, I imagine a lot more success stories would exist. Most are wont to simply give up, and while I wouldn’t have been as stupid as Buttercup ((this was actually the point where her tolerability began to wane for me)) and inhale a bunch of sand trying to yell for someone to save me, I’m sure I wouldn’t have had any hope of surviving such an ordeal. I would have severely underestimated the man I loved ((if I was Buttercup in this situation)).

I’ve noticed this a lot, though. Buttercup demeans him and underestimates him despite however many times he proves his worth to her, but he still loves her. WTF? Westley is awesome and a total badass, but he’s kind of whipped in a way to keep coming back to someone who can never love him as much as he loves her ((he obviously loves her more than himself)), someone who treats him like crap even when she thinks she’s saving his life. I don’t know how or why someone would ever shape her or his life to revolve around someone else. I mean, sure, it may seem romantic, but how can a person ever truly be happy living like that?

[Kalon Ordona II]

It's a little better in the movie, but Westley's still the awesome one. ^_^

I liked seeing in the book the whole story of Inigo's training. It's just so over-the-top. Of course that only means it's even MORE awesome when Westley wins. xD

Oh yeah, by the way, Westley wins. xD Just thought I'd spoil that for Ryona. ^_^ You HAVE to see the movie, though. One of the best swordfighting scenes in movie history.

[Gadreille]

Well, I hadn't got to the part that reveals it's Westley, but he already defeated Inigo and I had a feeling it was him anyway. I don't know if I'll ever get to see the movie. I don't really spend money on movies right now (though I saw it at target for 7.50, if ever I have that to spare I will spend it on that, but usually spare money goes to food right now, which I must say, takes priority over movies )

Edit: I just finished chapter five. So, I'm caught up now, right?

I’ve noticed this a lot, though. Buttercup demeans him and underestimates him despite however many times he proves his worth to her, but he still loves her. WTF? Westley is awesome and a total badass, but he’s kind of whipped in a way to keep coming back to someone who can never love him as much as he loves her ((he obviously loves her more than himself)), someone who treats him like crap even when she thinks she’s saving his life. I don’t know how or why someone would ever shape her or his life to revolve around someone else. I mean, sure, it may seem romantic, but how can a person ever truly be happy living like that?

I was wondering this too...lol!

I, like you, also loved the scenes where Westley faces the three kidnappers. I hope to see more of the Spaniard and Turk later in the story

[Kathryn Lacey]

I agree, Kalon. Inigo has an awesome back story, and pretty much everything is over the top in this book, so it's just wonderful. XD

DUDE! I totally agree! I mean, Inigo has been training for what... ten years or so to become a Wizard with a sword, and Westley has had like... three. Westley is a badass fo' sho'. XD

Ryona, this movie is a cult classic. I'm sure at least one of your friends will have it. Maybe you can borrow it or watch it with them? I bet even Taeo would like it, so you could definitely watch it with him. I'm sure the library would have it, too! If you can buy it, though, I highly doubt you will ever regret the purchase - though I totally understand how movies lose to food.

I love Inigo and Fezzik! Even in just that portion of the book, they're so awesome, and you can tell they're not all bad. Maybe they're just misguided? Ooooor, maybe they'll try to avenge their leader? Who knows! We'll see!

Yep! Chapter 5 is the end of the second section. I won't begrudge anyone reading ahead, though. I couldn't resist after all, and it's my first time reading the book.

[Gadreille]

Our library charges to rent movies and my friends don't have it -sigh-

Someday I'll watch it. I just can't afford any movie memberships/rental fees right now. Theoden's birthday is this saturday, and we had to buy a new battery for the car and swooooosh there all our money goes

[Kalon Ordona II]

You have to PAY to borrow movies from your library??

[Kathryn Lacey]

I agree that that is horrible, but it's not entirely unfounded. I mean, I'm sure that libraries lose money all the time due to theft or damage. However, the only library where I've had to pay for anything other than a late fee just required a deposit that I'd get back upon the item's return.

[Gadreille]

I just messaged Raspeyer. I'm sorry, I completely fell behind on this. I never finished "Buttercup's Baby" either

[Raspeyer]

Totally skipped out on this and I had planned to read the princess bride. Will be reading it on my own time now. I love the movie except I don't care for the whole grandpa reading to his grandson set-up. The kid's interruptions are annoying.

I've gotten myself ahold of an e-reader which I actually like. (There's also a program called Calibre for the PC that reads ebooks). Makes getting books a snap since I'm not sure how long I'll be in a town or not.

Any how, my choice is going to be Perdido Street Station by China Mieville.

It's a rather long book, 52 chapters, 640 pages as listed on amazon. If we read it in a month it'll be about 10 chapters a week.

I suppose we would start next week? I haven't read this book myself, it was recommended to me and it's sort of a creepy sounding sci-fi fantasy book.

If anyone has trouble finding this book I can share my e-book. I also have a backup if this book is too difficult.

I figure it'll break down to this:
Week 1: Chapter 1 - 11
Week 2: Chapter 11 - 22
Week 3: Chapter 22 - 33
Week 4: Chapter 33 - 44
Week 5: Chapter 44 - 52

[Gadreille]

I've linked this post to the first of the thread. I should be able to get this book easily enough. We'll see if everyone else can gather this book by next week, if not, we can push it forward a week.

[Kalon Ordona II]

You can share e-books?

[Raspeyer]

Yeah, I can just upload the book to a dropbox account and share the link with you. Just need to know the format.

Has anyone had luck finding the book?

[Gadreille]

I'm going to the library today, I"ll let you know this afternoon if I got it.

Edit: All copies were checked out

[Gadreille]

As per Kalon's suggestion in the John Carter thread, I propose moving on with the book club by reading together A Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs. I've already read it but would love to read it again. If I get even one other person interested, I'll put up a post with the weekly reading sections and we'll start in about a week!

[Guest]

\

[Kalon Ordona II]

I'm definitely in! ^_^
My library system has it, and I have now placed a hold.

Slight problem though:
"43 Holds with 8 total copies"

...yeah.

However! I have increased my chances of getting it sooner by placing holds on other editions, and the other four (xD) are all 15-18 holds on about 8 copies.

So yay!

Man, that 95-year-old edition must've been awesome.

[Gadreille]

Kalon, did you get ahold of this book yet? If not, will you let us know when you get it so we can start?

[Kalon Ordona II]

I have 4 holds on 4 separate editions and none of them look like they'll turn up anytime soon, unfortunately.

[Gadreille]

Bummer!!! Would you like to pick another book while we wait? Or have me pick another?

[Kalon Ordona II]

I've been reading the Chronicles of the Imaginarium Geographica while I wait. I'm on book 2 right now, The Search for the Red Dragon. They're by James Owen.

I'm fine with you picking if you want. If you don't have any ideas, I could think of some. :>

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