Re: Emoria: World-Building OOC

[Gadreille]

If it collapses, it collapses. We won't have a solid creation story. I have to deal with pushed beliefs in real life, I won't have it in Emoria.

We have come to agreement on the physical aspect of the world as well as the plot. It will have to be enough concrete to hold, and if it isn't...this is just an RP. A great one, but still an RP. I'll say it again...We won't be favoring one religion/creation story over anothers.

[Gadreille]

Oh, Raptor, I think I know what you are talking about in terms of Silvone agreeing to spirits. We did agree that some ancient spirits made the world, but we agreed that no group could have any relation or control to those spirits. So those spirits represent Truth, but it isn't the truth or religion that any of our characters see with 100% clarity. These spirits were long before Kalon's people, and whether or not they created Kalon's people are up to him. All we know is that there was an unknown period of time between the creation of the world and the creation of sentient beings to inhabit the world.

Does this make sense? Is this what you meant? Are there any issues with this?

[Gabe]

Sort of on the same note as Shadow Moonseye:
I think that we will be alright without a definite answer to the question of creation. In our real life world, any given person can tell me their religious or scientific beliefs about how the earth came about. While I value everyones opinions on the matter, I will gladly argue otherwise no matter what your opinion is. (This is due to personal matters unrelated to this situation) I think the best resolution to this situation is to have the creation beliefs for our characters be as diverse as the people who created them.

[Gadreille]

A little surprise for you all. It is nothing major, just a little something!

[Gabe]

Ryona:
If you're referring to the character collage, it looks great! An excellent touch indeed.

In reference to an earlier post of mine:
I've made my decision regarding my major issue. Its a high risk - high reward endeavour, especially considering I haven't done anything like this before. That compounded with the size of this RP made me doubt my ability to pull it off correctly, but the challenge is something I see being very rewarding in the long run.

All of that said, all I can say is that Nilus will have company on his journey to the gathering of nations.

[Blackrock]

Since when does a concrete background measure the success of an RP?

Oh yeah, having everything ordered and drawn out beforehand is nice, but a "513 years ago *this* happened, while 243 years ago John was born to Bill..." just doesn't seem plausible to me. It would work if you had, say, a GM and a couple of players or a collaboration between a small group (1-on-1 comes to mind). Last I checked we have seventeen writers on board. That means seventeen different ideas on what the "concrete background" should be. Are we going to spend another month (at the least) arguing about what should be what?

Besides, most of my favourite books lack a detailed timeline, hence I don't view it as necessary. To take an example many of us should be familiar with, The Lord of the Rings. Epic in scope and detail, extensive timeline and all that...but wait. Does it mention when the world was created? The counting of years begins only when the Valar come to Arda. In other words, a particular event marks the "beginning". And that is a very rare type of read, I should add.

The devil's in the details and we have a lot of them with us, no need to create more.

On a different note - our characters all grouped like that is very nice Ryona, awesome!

[Kalon Ordona II]

I had also assumed that we had all accepted the Planes as The Way Things Are, whatever our worldspace religions are. (I worded one of my posts poorly, accidentally seeming to imply that we need a solid creation story.) The creation of the world aside, however, there is still the concrete, recorded history of Emoria to consider. That part is not people's beliefs. Therefore I stand by my original proposal to have the construction of the Great Library be the basis for the "official" count of time. Individual nations can accept or reject it, but as the Great Library is a standard for the civilized world, so would most of the civilized world naturally accept its measure of time.

This is still a planet with 12 months in a year; we've established that. Regardless of how time flows in planes other than the Material, a year is still one earth-like revolution around the sun, I'm assuming, thus it is a tangible, natural measurement of time. The seasons and years aren't up for debate, therefore they can be tracked, and people will naturally track them. Since a Library is a storehouse of information, there would naturally be historical records. Historical records require dates. A year is the most natural measurement for historical periods of time. Whatever other time systems there may or may not be in other worldspaces, a year is still a year. So we have years, and stuff happens in those years, and the important stuff stands out. Timeline.

It is no offense to cultures to have a timeline. It's history. Whether the cultures like it or not, stuff happens at certain times, and you can't go back and change it. With as many writers as we have in this project, a timeline is all the more necessary, to unify the histories of our respective cultures, at least back to a certain point. Hence the Library, the most logical choice for our purposes and the most natural for the peoples of Emoria.

It's up to Silvone and Ryona, as the heads of this thing, to decide. I'm just saying, something like a timeline would be a valuable reference, so that we're all on the same page on things.

If there isn't a system like that, there may be a lot of misunderstandings as we go. Facts will get screwed up. We have to make an official reference point, a standard, if we want to maintain continuity. A timeline is an easy, intuitive, visual, fun way to summarize the history of Emoria.

[Dax]

Yes, and remember we can start a time-line at one point without necessarily saying when the beginning is.

TIme lines are great, but they need a structure. Like for our calendar it was Christs birth: we need a focal event that will start our calendar that isnt too long ago but isnt too close either.

we can do this: LN for the Library or BW/BI for Before War or Before Illuria or whatever. I am not saying that we should use that, but I think you all undertsand what I mean.

So, the first recorded event that we all know happened would be the Planal wars 11k years ago (we might as well use that for our *defining point*) and not say anything before that because, quite simply, no one knows what happened before that. For example:

??, BE (Before Elemental Wars)
Y0, Elemental Wars
Y1, Creation of Morgarath


etc., etc., quite simple, yes?

[Gabe]

If we're taking a vote, mine goes to taking the war 2000ish years ago and making it the base of our modern time line.

[Gadreille]

Time lines are fine, but your time line cannot state when the beginning of the world was. It can state when the beginning of measuring time was (as in, the building of the Great Library, Etc) but it cannot state that

"Emoria was created x amount of years ago, and my people know this because they were there at the beginning." <-- This is the only no-no.

If your timeline follows that rule then there are no issues.

Edit:

But that's the point, my guys are immortal; they CAN'T guesstimate, because they were THERE.

Although, that was only the case at the time just before the library's construction. So, if we just nail that down, we should be fine. In fact, it's probably the PERFECT time to begin the count of years.

So, Kathryn! About how long ago do you suppose the Great Library was built? 7,000? 9,000? more?

The underlined section is the part that Silv and I cannot accept, because as we understood it you were stating that your people were there since the beginning of time. However, if what you meant is that they were there at the beginning of measured time, then there is no issues.

[Guest]

Yes, the timeline is fine. Measuring the beginning of time from a certain event in history is fine. What you've been doing with the timeline so far is acceptable. The planes are all fine as well. The planes are indeed a fact: they are there, tangible, measurable. Anyone can see them. My only problem was stating that there was a definitive date for their creation, and the creation of the material plane itself. And the only reason why is because it stifles creativity. Thats it. I'm not trying to say that you can't make anything solid. You can.
When I mentioned the planes, it was only to make the point that anyone can deny the word of the spirits on what has happened in the past, and even the spirits themselves can be wrong or misleading based on the variations of the passage of time in the various planes. I wasn't trying to say that the planes aren't in fact real. They are. We did decide that the world would be composed of several planes. But I don't want all of it to be limited completely to about 12,000 years with nothing before. It is too definitive.

There are only two limits for me: religion, and the time of creation.

Why?

Because it creates all of the above: arguments.

Sorry if I've been a bit of a prick, and I hope we've cleared up my meaning by now. If not, please let me know.

[Gabe]

I don't think anyone can be upset with that notion. I'm pretty sure nobody wants to stifle anyone else's creativity. I would do the same thing given the option.

[Kalon Ordona II]

However, if what you meant is that they were there at the beginning of measured time, then there is no issues.

As I said, poorly worded. I meant that since they've been alive all this time, they would remember things. For me to have them remember things, things need to happen; for things to happen, they must have happened at a certain time, and they'd remember how long ago it was. That was the idea behind that statement.

Anyway YAY! So it looks like we're all on the same page, now.
Of course, this still leaves us without a starting point for the count of years, as well as how many years ago the Great Library was built. Unfortunately for us, Kathryn won't be available for a little over a week.

Any ideas, SiRy? Should we wait for Kathryn to say, or do you think that should be a decision left up to the two of you? (I'm leaning toward this second option.) Ryona says the first Jasidin sorceressess appeared well over 5,000 years ago. I think I might need at least 6,000 or 7,000 years for my Thendári, especially when you factor in the fall of Mandor and the rise of Äm (from Vatienne, from Mandor).

With the Quendi living 2,500 years, and with so many other long-lived races, I suppose that's why we have such large figures for years. I suppose it could easily be more than 7 or 8,000 years since the Library was first constructed, after the Fire folks destroyed Enya.

[Gadreille]

What Kathryn and I sort of decided was that the library would have been built around the same time as Morgorath's dark tower, which would be probably within a thousand years of his birth. I THINK that is what we agreed upon. Does that help?

*That depends on when Raptorman decides his tower was built.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Yes, but that doesn't give us an exact date. Now we have to figure out when Morgarath came into being. xD
Raptorman keeps saying it's a lot more than 11,000 years.

I just need some sort of definite, "it was this many thousand years ago," reference point, unless we're all just blindly agreeing with my rough date of 7,000 years for the Library. If I have that, then I can build a Thendári timeline around that, since the time of the Library's construction was about the time of their origin. So once I have that, everything else should fall into place. The thendári would almost certainly have a different method for dividing up the ages, but it would still start around that time.

Also, should it be an exact thousand-year number? or something like 8427. I guess another way to phrase that question would be, Would Morgarath begin this whole kidnapping scheme on an exact, planned date, or is he just going whenever he's ready? If it's just whenever, then we might want to pick a whatever date, but if he's the perfectionist type, he might choose "yeah, I'll launch my domination scheme on my 11,000th birthday."

Edit:
Another question: Has it been EXACTLY 2,000 years since the Illuria Wars?

[Guest]

Edit: I'm a little slow... We need to hear from Raptorman more than Kathryn it seems. We all thought his age was 11,000 like you just said, I don't why he is changing it now. We need a definite age from him, and then we can agree on a tentative dating for the library until Kathryn returns to state otherwise. If Raptorman still agrees for 11,000 years, then we're fine. If not...its up to Kathryn if she wants to push the date of the library back to keep up with Morgaroth. Personally, I don't see why Morgorath needs to be even older...

---

Everyone, check out the new character sheet list, courtesy of our very own Kalon Ordona II! Everyone should have their icon now, so don't forget to put them in at the top of your posts. Ryona put up instructions in the Emoria icon thread for those who don't know how to do it.

As far as the dates go, I don't think it needs to be concrete at the moment. We can decide on something temporarily until Kathryn is able to come back, but unless this information is going to be needed in the role-play itself, I don't think its that important to have figured out just yet.

Of course, it is necessary to figure it out, I just don't want to make an official decision because Kathryn is gone for a week or two, you know? I think we've still got time to put it off. I remember along the lines of what Ryona said, that the library was built within an millenia of Morgorath's appearance.

[Guest]

Morgarath

Two As and one o in his name.

Anyway kathryn and I were discussing morgarath's age and it had been decided that morgarath needed to be older so that the time frame with so many long lived races would make sense.

[Guest]

Thats fine. Do you need to work with Kathryn to figure it out, or have you already decided what age he should be and how old the library is?

[Bird of Hermes]

I think Raptor is absolutely correct. I know some of us were involved in a role play together that could have been amazing, but one of the writers never included anyone in her/his posts. This person always wrote only about what her/his character was doing without any interaction with the others even when we would try to instigate interaction, and I know it irritated a lot of us.

I, for one, am going to try hard to keep everyone that I can involved in my posts, and if anyone ever feels that I should have included them, there is an edit button that I can use to fix the error.

My posts tend to fall as "isolation-ish" sometimes. It is because I try not to control others' characters at all. Just let me know if I need more interaction.

this response is not what I want to see. Ever. End of story. It is not that you are arguing against me. I'm fine with that. I encourage it. But "the spirits made the world sorry" caps others creativity. And I won't have that here.

The fact is: no one was there. It cannot be proven. It may be the best of all possible answers, but that is as far as it can ever be taken.

??, BE (Before Elemental Wars)
Y0, Elemental Wars
Y1, Creation of Morgarath

Personally, I love it. Simple.

The underlined section is the part that Silv and I cannot accept, because as we understood it you were stating that your people were there since the beginning of time. However, if what you meant is that they were there at the beginning of measured time, then there is no issues.

I agree.

[Bird of Hermes]

A little surprise for you all. It is nothing major, just a little something!

I just saw this. It is great. Thanks everyone for all the little things, like formatting and such. I understand that it all takes time and dedication.

<3

[Kalon Ordona II]

Where did Raptorman go?

[Gadreille]

I know he has been very busy with school work

[Kalon Ordona II]

I guess I'll just have to do as much as I can on my post and character sheet. *sigh* I just feel like I'm swimming in... dare I say it... fog, because long-lived characters say these subtle things all the time that hint at how much they've been around for. Hard to do while still in the soup of timelinelessness.

[Guest]

Sorry guys, I am still here and I am still working on getting everything set up. I have been overloaded with homework and I just had the SAT today. I should in the next few weeks be able to be around more again.

[Gadreille]

I feel your pain Raptorman, I've been through it before. Hope the test went well!

This is the most important thing we need from you and/or Kathryn:

Thats fine. Do you need to work with Kathryn to figure it out, or have you already decided what age he should be and how old the library is?

[Guest]

We were still working on the exact ages.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Here's what I'll do, then. The period between the Avari journey and the Avari transgression is quite vague. So, I'll start my timeline at the start of the thendári Age of Illumination, and let the period before that drag back however far it has to. That'll be for Kathryn and Raptorman to fill in.

With that, here's my new rough timeline. I'll start the Thendári clock at the coming of Alos, which marks the beginning of their first Age.

---

0 A.I. ~ the Age of Illumination begins
c. 300 A.I. ~ Origins of the Sildári, the Rise of Mandor
926 A.I. ~ The Thendári massacre the Sildári, the Fall of Mandor
2,082 A.I. ~ The days of Alos's Forge begin
2,420 A.I. ~ The days of Alos's Forge come to an end
2,421 A.I. ~ Origins of the Paladins of Aendrel
2,421 A.I. ~ Age of Illumination ends

0 A.L. ~ Age of Light begins
2,713 A.L. ~ The ending of the Illuria Wars
2,855 A.L. ~ The Thendári facilitate the return of the Sildári to Irrihyánë
3,361 A.L. ~ The Vatiennien colony declares independence, the Rise of Äm
3,461 A.L. ~ Age of Light ends

0 A.S. ~ Age of Spirit begins
1,252 A.S. ~ present day.

---

In other words, the thendári Age of Spirit begins 1,252 years ago. The Illuria Wars end 2,000 years ago. The thendári Age of Light begins 4,173 years ago, and their Age of Illumination begins 7,134 years ago.

[Blackrock]

Sorry for delaying, turns out this week is going to be a bitch as well *sighs*. I'll probably finish with my post by tomorrow.

[Gabe]

I'm out having coffee with my brother right now, but my IC post is sitting on the laptop at home, nearly finished. It's longer than I had intended, but since this is my first RP in a long time I am hoping to make a good post. I already see in my proofreading that it jumps around a little, but I'm having trouble conveying my meaning any other way.
Anyway, I will try and submit it before crashing for the night, hope everyone enjoys what the finished post looks like.

[Gadreille]

DeadEye, great post Sorry it took me so long to respond. FINALS ARE OVER FOR ME! YAY! If only school didn't resume in a week...blah.

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