Re: Emoria: World-Building OOC

[Gadreille]

Awesome Kalon. We'll say that that initial reports of a Jasidin Clan occur about 5300 B.P?

[Kathryn Lacey]

I think Raptor is absolutely correct. I know some of us were involved in a role play together that could have been amazing, but one of the writers never included anyone in her/his posts. This person always wrote only about what her/his character was doing without any interaction with the others even when we would try to instigate interaction, and I know it irritated a lot of us.

I, for one, am going to try hard to keep everyone that I can involved in my posts, and if anyone ever feels that I should have included them, there is an edit button that I can use to fix the error.

I don't mind PM's at all. I think having OoC contact whether private or public is very important, and I know I'll be using them as often as need be.

Kalon, it was my understanding that the Library was created a little before Morgarath, but I had thought the Thendári had broken away from the rest of the Quendi before the Library was created unless you want the Thendári to have been a part of the Library building process.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Morgarath was made by the Shadow folk right after the Sundering, and has been the dark hand of evil in the world ever since. The Library wasn't made before the Sundering, was it?

[Kathryn Lacey]

I think the world has been around longer than you think.

Morgarath wasn't made immediately after the sundering from what I understood. Raptor and I discussed this, and we decided the Library would be slightly older than him ((if I'm remembering properly)).

I thought Raptor was the one making the time line, or did he give up on it?

[Kalon Ordona II]

He didn't give up on it; I just really need some sort of timeline to get started. My characters have been around for a long time, so I need them to have lives and memories.

I hope I'm not stealing his thunder or anything. Maybe this'll just get things going. I think Raptor might not have much free time.

The rough timeline up there is by no means official. It's meant to be proven wrong or right. xD

Morgarath came into being soon after the 'origin war.'

The 'Origin War' is where Planes fought over the Material Plane and more after they created it, causing the Sundering. The Sundering set the boundaries between the planes and established the portals. Morgarath was created shortly thereafter so that the Shadow Plane could break into the Material Plane without the portal.

[Kathryn Lacey]

Raptor and I were discussing this, and the world has been around far longer than 11,000 years.

I also had the idea that maybe time flows differently in different planes? I got the idea from the Chronicles of Amber, but it would make sense. If there were creative differences in creating planes and creating life, why wouldn't there be differences in the flow of time in each area?

[Kalon Ordona II]

More than 11,000 years is fine with me. More years to work with.
Did he say about how long it was?

That's an interesting thought about time.
Maybe there isn't any time at all in the Spirit Plane, for example.

[Kalon Ordona II]

(whoops; sorry for the double post there)

Here's a little treatise I did on the Light and Shadow Planes. Please let me know what you guys think. There's also a little bit of proposed history between the Light and Shadow Planes.

---

Light and Shadow will inevitably be at odds. They are opposing forces that must always be in balance. If all was Light, then all would be white and blinding, and all would perish and depart to the Spirit Plane. If all was Shadow, then all would be black and blinding, and all would perish and depart to the Spirit Plane. Neither must be allowed to dominate; both have their place. The brightest light is worth nothing without its contrast in shadow.

This may lead some to believe that Light is not necessarily good and Shadow is not necessarily evil. This is not so. Why are good deeds brought into the light? Why are evil deeds concealed in darkness? Evil has its place: in the shadows. Evil is necessary. Without Evil, there is no Good, there only Is. Without Shadow, there is no Light, only death. Good has its place: in the light. Good is necessary. Without Good, there is no Evil, there only Is. Without Light, there is no Shadow, only death. Life exists in the balance of Choice. Without Choice, there would be no Life. Evil is that which is against the laws of the Spirit Plane. Good is that which is toward the laws of the Spirit Plane. For the Spirit Plane surrounds all.

Light seeks to create, reveal, and change.
Shadow seeks to change, conceal, and destroy.
Light is sight, hearing, imagination, affection, and conscience.
Shadow is touch, taste, smell, reasoning, and memory.
Light and Shadow combine to make time, life, death, and faith.

---

The Light Plane and the Shadow Plane were first, if I remember correctly. They would have a long, long history. There were probably endless conflicts before the origin wars ever occurred between the Elemental Planes. After the Sundering, the Shadow Plane folk made Morgarath, right? Alos would have already existed, but he would not have been on the Material Plane at all, so Morgarath is the longest running resident of the Material Plane.

The Light plane didn't really have any more direct contact with the Material Plane or any others until the rise of the Thendári. This would be several thousand years before the present day. Probably at least 6,000, if not more. By then, Morgarath and the Shadow probably had a lot of dominance and was causing all sorts of imbalance, which Alos was quite concerned about. Hence the paladins.

[Kathryn Lacey]

Well, I was thinking that the boundaries between planes would be set, then enough time would pass that the Material Plane's portal would be forgotten. That's why the Quendi were caught unaware when the fire beings made their way through it, enabling the creatures to completely wipe out Enya which allowed for the city/state of Knowledge to be created in their memorry. Of course, it probably didn't start as a city/state, but evolved that way over time when so many people from all over contributed.

Anyway, when it was first created, it was just the Great Library, and Morgarath would have come after the Library.

We've agreed that time likely flows faster in Shadow than Material, so it explains why Morgarath didn't come into existence immediately after the whole boundary thing.


Your little segment on the relationship between light and shadow sounds good to me.

[Kalon Ordona II]

It also explains how Morgarath can wait so long.
I wonder how time would go in the Light plane....

Time is probably really slow in the Earth Plane, and super fast in the Fire Plane. (just completely rough guesses)

So, did they build the library maybe 2,000 years after the Sundering? or more like 4,000?

[Kathryn Lacey]

Well, the Quendi live to be about 2500 years, so I was thinking a few generations would have had to have passed.

[Gadreille]

We had agreed that the origin of the world is unknown, so you can just put a question mark or something to mark it. Each culture may guestimate the age of the world how they so choose.

[Kalon Ordona II]

But that's the point, my guys are immortal; they CAN'T guesstimate, because they were THERE.

Although, that was only the case at the time just before the library's construction. So, if we just nail that down, we should be fine. In fact, it's probably the PERFECT time to begin the count of years.

So, Kathryn! About how long ago do you suppose the Great Library was built? 7,000? 9,000? more?

[Guest]

I myself was under the impression that it was significantly longer than that.

[Kalon Ordona II]

All the better if it is.

Hey, should we use LN for the year-count? for Library of Nolwë? ^^

Also, let's keep in mind that a thousand years is a looooooooong time.

[Guest]

Especially given the fact that morgarath has been around for more than 6,000 years.

[Kalon Ordona II]

At one time I believe you had a number like 11,000+ for Morgarath's age.

[Guest]

I agree. It is like establishing an official religion or "real" god. I don't want to put an ultimate cap on anything, including the age of the world. Hell, it took us until just recently to really find out how old our world is. Before that, it was all conjecture (I guess it still is, depending on how you look at it...but nvm that). I would like the age of the world to remain open and, as Ryona said, an opinion or guestimate of each culture within.

Edit: My posting took too long. The last post I had read was Ryona's....

If that is the case, Kalon, I don't want anything established unless everyone, and I mean everyone, agrees on it. I don't want a constant argument through the story because someone is pissed that they don't agree with the timeline and no one cared. If you say your creations are immortal, which is pushing boundaries in my opinion, but whatever, then I want it to go well with everyone. Not just Kathryn, or Raptorman, but everyone who is included.

Sorry to be so strict about this, but it is something that could turn up later to bite us in the ass.

[Kalon Ordona II]

*nods* Sounds fair to me.

In that case, if we only make the years after the Great Library definite, then everything before that can be vague. The Great Library would definitely keep records, and everyone seems to hold the Great Library as the standard.

[Dax]

I just want to add the following:

Not everything has to be X thousand years old. A thousand years is incredibly long and only two civilizations have lived that long (but not long after the one thousand mark) in our own history. Also keep in mind that we are still in the medieval/middle ages.

I was going to post a thesis-like post about how every civilization should have evolved if everything was really this old, but I thought that it would just add a useless layer of complexity on this already complex RP.

On a side not: for my first post, I decided to skip the travel part and start at the gates of the elven city ... and the post is inc.

Oh, and again before I forget, will the creation of every nation be included in the time-line? Well that... and important battles (Illuria comes to my mind)

[Kalon Ordona II]

Yes. Probably everything should go in the timeline, in different sizes.
I have to go to work now, so I'll be back late this evening.

[Shadow Moonseye]

Well, I'm a tad confused over what's happening, but I'll throw in my two cents anyways. You all can feel free to dismiss what I have to say if it's irrelevant, or correct me if it's wrong.

I really would prefer that there is no set date as to how old the world is. This stems from my dislike of "dating" stories, and the fact that it would present a few problems with how logical the advance of the different civilizations are. (But, going into that would just complicate things, like Dax said.)

As far as your people, Kalon, and their immortality perhaps I can offer a solution. They weren't always immortal, correct? So, they haven't been around since the "beginning" of the world. Thus, we don't need to have an exact date as to how old the world is. But, for your people, they could very well see that they have been around since the beginning, even though in actuality, they have not.

Does any of that make sense? If not, sorry to waste people's time with frivolous drivel.

[Guest]

Ryona and I both understand your point, Shadow Moonseye, and we both agree. Everyone will see the beginning differently. The world was here before the people, even the spirits, were here. That is the simple fact. Everyone has their own beliefs on that matter, and that is fine. But one is not more prominent over the other. They are beliefs, based off of the history of a civilization and what they understand about the world they live in.

[Guest]

[quote="Silvone Elestahr"]. The world was here before the people, even the spirits, were here. That is the simple fact./quote]

Except it isn't look at what you have approved already please, the spirits made the world sorry.

[Guest]

Let me give you an example: It was and is a common Christian belief that the world is only about 6,000 years old, and other things that they solidly believe to be true. They claim to have evidence that it is true, that their god speaks to them, that he is present among us every day. Yet I don't believe it to be true. So, when someone who has no interaction with the other planes, no interaction with the spirits from those planes, decides to argue against them, what are you going to say?
You can't say: go look back at what has been approved in the OOC. Not everyone is going to have the same beliefs. Not everyone is going to have contact with these spirits who supposedly created the world. Not everyone is going to believe their claim.
All I'm trying to do, which I've said since the very beginning and you can go back and read it if you want, is that I don't want anything that caps someone elses creativity. If you guys want to come to a general consensus that the spirits created the world, as your own religious belief, then that is fine. But I have said from the very beginning that NOTHING about the creation of the world will be set in stone. I never officially approved of the planes and spirits being the official creation, though I admit I never clarified it either.
So I'm telling you now: you don't have to change anything, your work isn't for nothing, but neither is it the final word. I don't care how much a culture believes their ideas are true, or what claims these spirits make. Everyone has a story, and they ALL believe theirs is true.

So:

Except it isn't look at what you have approved already please, the spirits made the world sorry.

this response is not what I want to see. Ever. End of story. It is not that you are arguing against me. I'm fine with that. I encourage it. But "the spirits made the world sorry" caps others creativity. And I won't have that here.

[Guest]

Let me give you an example: It was and is a common Christian belief that the world is only about 6,000 years old, and other things that they solidly believe to be true. They claim to have evidence that it is true, that their god speaks to them, that he is present among us every day. Yet I don't believe it to be true. So, when someone who has no interaction with the other planes, no interaction with the spirits from those planes, decides to argue against them, what are you going to say?
You can't say: go look back at what has been approved in the OOC. Not everyone is going to have the same beliefs. Not everyone is going to have contact with these spirits who supposedly created the world. Not everyone is going to believe their claim.
All I'm trying to do, which I've said since the very beginning and you can go back and read it if you want, is that I don't want anything that caps someone elses creativity. If you guys want to come to a general consensus that the spirits created the world, as your own religious belief, then that is fine. But I have said from the very beginning that NOTHING about the creation of the world will be set in stone. I never officially approved of the planes and spirits being the official creation, though I admit I never clarified it either.
So I'm telling you now: you don't have to change anything, your work isn't for nothing, but neither is it the final word. I don't care how much a culture believes their ideas are true, or what claims these spirits make. Everyone has a story, and they ALL believe theirs is true.

So:

Except it isn't look at what you have approved already please, the spirits made the world sorry.

this response is not what I want to see. Ever. End of story. It is not that you are arguing against me. I'm fine with that. I encourage it. But "the spirits made the world sorry" caps others creativity. And I won't have that here.

You did agree on the planes thing, I can cite evidence that you did. Otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it like I did.

[Guest]

Then cite where I said that. I will then rescind that approval based on the fact that it will cause problems with other characters. I approve it as a creation story, for anyone who is willing to accept it as such. But I will also cite myself saying, in the very beginning, that I don't want creativity caps. And this is one. I'm sorry if this causes problems. Nothing really needs to be changed. I'm just taking any official standing away from it.

[Guilty Carrion]

Guys, before this gets out of hand, can I just say that it dosen't really matter? So what if a bunch of glowing orbs made a giant ball of rock or if it was made normal ones are. That dosen't affect the story, so it shouldn't matter this much.

I don't want this getting out of hand...sorry if it's not my place.

[Gadreille]

As long as everyone understands that there is an unknown origin of the earth and that no ones creation story is Truth, which we have talked about multiple times in the past, then there is no issues! So I hope everyone can come to terms with these things.

Silvone has to go to work so any other further issues will have to be dealt with through me, sorry guys.

[Guest]

Then this whole rp will likely collapse. Something has to be endorsed as real or there is no concrete background.

I am not trying to argue with you I am just saying from my experience that unless there is a concrete base for the story nothing will work.

I am not trying to be difficult either but you will likely annoy others even more than me.

It also matters because if that is not concrete than about half if not more of our plans do not work.

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