Re: FoG Rubric Feedback

[Bird of Hermes]

Thank you for posting this! I am sure Fate can sticky it when she gets online.

[Tartra]

There might be an issue with the rubric's use owing to the lack of completed threads on FOG. With that said, though, I like how it was set up. Nice work!

[The Ghost Writer]

There might be an issue with the rubric's use owing to the lack of completed threads on FOG. With that said, though, I like how it was set up. Nice work!

A fine observate, Tartra, and one that has been discussed quite extensively for a good while. Indeed, while the lack of completed role plays may see little use of this feature, it should also serve as a slight nudge to complete them.

[Chainlinc3]

A fine observate, Tartra, and one that has been discussed quite extensively for a good while. Indeed, while the lack of completed role plays may see little use of this feature, it should also serve as a slight nudge to complete them.

Debater... instincts... urging me to try and prove otherwise! xD

On a more serious note, I'm slightly concerned by the suggestion to design shorter storylines. As things currently are, many people put seemingly inordinate amounts of time into their characters-- it seems like pushing shorter stories (thus meaning less use per character) would encourage sloppy character designs (well, sloppier because I find it hard to believe any GM on FoG would accept a truly poor character). Then again, part of the "debater mindset" is that I see slippery slopes EVERYWHERE...

Anyway, that's just my thought. Otherwise, I think this is a great idea-- though it might be fun to have other honors that aren't quite as daunting as the FoG Hall of Fame. Perhaps the highest scoring RP you've participated in could... somehow effect your profile, with higher scores moving you into higher "tiers?" I mean, we already have the ghosts for post counts and stuff, so I'm not sure what else we could do there, but I do think having lower goals to aspire to would make the process more rewarding (and make it easier to track one's progress as a writer).

[Tartra]

Otherwise, I think this is a great idea-- though it might be fun to have other honors that aren't quite as daunting as the FoG Hall of Fame. Perhaps the highest scoring RP you've participated in could... somehow effect your profile, with higher scores moving you into higher "tiers?" I mean, we already have the ghosts for post counts and stuff, so I'm not sure what else we could do there, but I do think having lower goals to aspire to would make the process more rewarding (and make it easier to track one's progress as a writer).

I really like that idea. In fact, I wholeheartedly support it. I know the Monthly Features were too hard to maintain and brought on a sense of competition others didn't like (some of the explanations in another thread), but this would seem much easier and still rewards a writer, giving them encouragement on the way to a completed RP. It also lifts the competition element because now you're only competing with yourself. The ghosts for post count are nice to show seniority and participation, but on a website like this, it'd be great to have a system to emphasize quality.

It's just putting it into action that's the tricky part. Maybe someone could apply for a rank by submitting a sample post/recent post/some kind of post? And then when they want to move up, submit another?

[Fate Flyer]

Perhaps the highest scoring RP you've participated in could... somehow effect your profile, with higher scores moving you into higher "tiers?"

That's an interesting idea. I think we can consider doing something like this as more incentive to complete RPs. There could be something like "tier 0" for people who have no completed RPs, "tier 1" for people who have completed 1 role-play, "tier 2" for those who have finished 2, "tier 3" for those who have 3 RPs, etc.

[Chainlinc3]

xD
Neither of those were quite what I was trying to suggest, but they're both good ideas. Yay constructive miscommunication!

To clarify, I saw that the FoG Excellence Award required an 80%-- a task which, I suspect, will be VERY difficult to achieve. I was merely suggesting that we have additional awards-- like one for having a high score above 50%, another for above 60%, etc using increments of 10% (or some smaller/larger incrementation-- I hadn't thought it hugely through). That way, we don't encourage people to just whip through a bunch of low-quality RPs, but we also don't have this single standard intimidating people.

[Tartra]

Perhaps the highest scoring RP you've participated in could... somehow effect your profile, with higher scores moving you into higher "tiers?"

That's an interesting idea. I think we can consider doing something like this as more incentive to complete RPs. There could be something like "tier 0" for people who have no completed RPs, "tier 1" for people who have completed 1 role-play, "tier 2" for those who have finished 2, "tier 3" for those who have 3 RPs, etc.

My issue with that is that it still requires a roleplay to be completed, which no one's done. If it could be broken down into small bites, though, I'd go along with it.

... I saw that the FoG Excellence Award required an 80%...

Wait, wait. The what award?

Aside from that, I like it. But I'm still coming down to the 'rewards while the RP is being written, not after' thing, which is what I wouldn't mind see on FOG at all. After that, the full 'Tier' system Fate just tossed out sounds like a solid plan.

[Chainlinc3]

What do I strive for? Any thread that scores a total of 80 or higher (out of 100) qualifies for the “FoG Excellence Award” and eternal placement in the Hall of Fame. Such an accomplishment will not come easy however, so do not get discouraged if you don’t to meet this benchmark right away. These trials will only serve to enhance the glory of finally achieving this ultimate goal.

The FoG Excellence Award. Silly Tartra.

[Tartra]

Oh - that's from this thread! I thought it was something pre-established. I see.

[Christoph]

On a more serious note, I'm slightly concerned by the suggestion to design shorter storylines. As things currently are, many people put seemingly inordinate amounts of time into their characters-- it seems like pushing shorter stories (thus meaning less use per character) would encourage sloppy character designs (well, sloppier because I find it hard to believe any GM on FoG would accept a truly poor character). Then again, part of the "debater mindset" is that I see slippery slopes EVERYWHERE...

I would hesitate to classify a more minimalist approach to character design as "sloppy". Also, I wouldn't say to avoid longer stories entirely, but rather encourage the FoG writers to try shorter pieces as well, as well as to break up the truly epic stories into more manageable pieces (this isn't always possible, but sometimes an epic tale's structure lends itself toward being broken up into smaller, stand-alone parts). And hopefully, once the first part of an epic tale gets finished and reviewed, the participants will feel more motivated to push onward to the next Act. In short, I wouldn't fret over this issue. If anything, I expect the exact opposite to happen as members receive further motivation and encouragement to excel.

Also, I love the Tier idea as Fate described, though I would suggest a slight adjustment to the Tier qualifications. Tier 1 could still be for one completed, but then maybe have Tier 2 reserved for three completed, Tier 3 for 5, Tier 4 for 8 and so forth. I realize that some harbor concerns regarding whether or not anyone will complete ANY threads, let alone three or eight. I understand those concerns, and all I can say to you is to wait and see. Wait and see, and try to finish a Role-play of your own. Start small with an idea that you're confident in finishing within a reasonable stretch of time. Then, as our members grow feel more comfortable with the prospect of competing RPs, I expect to see longer stories more epic in their scope popping into the Request queue. I can only hope to pass on some of my excitement to everyone on FoG. This is going to be awesome!

[Guest]

I guess competition and striving for awesomeness is great... but I can't help but feel that this is kind of... pointless? I mean, the point of this website has been for advanced role-players to come together and make what has rarely been seen before; not only a great, literate role-play, but a completed one. I haven't seen one yet. And, in my time here, I have come to understand that there never will be. Emoria is the closest thing to it by a general consensus that all of the Chapter 1 arcs being completed would count as a completed role-play. And I can tell you now, that is never going to happen. Role-plays are about creating characters and bringing them together to create a story. It has never been about finishing one. And I dare say I will never live to see a completed role-play.

Perhaps it was out of place for me to post this, but seeing as I am a wee bit drunk at the moment, I don't mind. I think this rubric is a bit off-course for what the purpose of role-playing is, and I seriously doubt that the tantalizing carrot of an "outstanding reward" will motivate players to complete a role-play more than the simple satisfaction of writing one does. I am not saying that it shouldn't happen; by all means, go for it. But you can count me out.

That is my two-cents, perhaps to be deleted in the morning. Depends on how I feel...

[Misery]

So wait, we should make our rps shorter or break them up so that people don't go "TL;DR" ?

*snort* screw that.

Also, what is the process for opting out of this thing?

[Delve]

So wait, we should make our rps shorter or break them up so that people don't go "TL;DR" ?

*snort* screw that.

Also, what is the process for opting out of this thing?

I vouch for making this optional!

I come from a forum that uses tiers and it really bogs down the flow of things ic-wise. I highly advise against making this a requirement.

[Kathryn Lacey]

None of this is meant to be a requirement. If you say you don't want a role-play in which you're participating to be judged, then it won't be. Assent is required from all players, but if you fail to respond in two weeks, it's assumed that you're fine with it.

The tier ting was just brought up today, so it's not even something the staff have discussed implementing at this point. You won't have to worry about it yet, but I'm sure there will be a way to make that optional, too, if we decide to go with it.

Also, you don't have to make your role-plays shorter, guys. It's simply a suggestion if you want to complete a role-play. That's not to say that it's impossible to complete a role-play with a longer game. It only means that you can try it to see if it works for you and if you like it. You do not have to have a short completed game in order to have your game judged.

[Lord Revan]

Good job Christoph. I look forward to seeing this being put to use. It's a great idea, and a great incentive for members to complete RP's.

[Misery]

To be blunt, my sweet, while I think it is an interesting idea, and I would say writing a solo story that critical feedback is a MUST, this all feels a little bit too much like a 'gamer score' to me.

What I mean by that is an arbitrary point grading system with which people can have virtual pissing contests about whose is 'longer' if you catch my meaning. Ahem.

Honestly, there are so many factors that go into a roleplay that a lot of these wouldn't really speak much to individual talents. One awesome person does not make a great roleplay. And unless you have one person dominating the flow of an RP it's really hard to say a roleplay is going to go one way or another. In a way that's kind of the point.

I think it would be sad to see someone try to control a roleplay in order to hit the points in the above mentioned rubric. But I guess to each their own.

[Artorius]

I guess competition and striving for awesomeness is great... but I can't help but feel that this is kind of... pointless? I mean, the point of this website has been for advanced role-players to come together and make what has rarely been seen before; not only a great, literate role-play, but a completed one. I haven't seen one yet. And, in my time here, I have come to understand that there never will be. Emoria is the closest thing to it by a general consensus that all of the Chapter 1 arcs being completed would count as a completed role-play. And I can tell you now, that is never going to happen. Role-plays are about creating characters and bringing them together to create a story. It has never been about finishing one. And I dare say I will never live to see a completed role-play.

Perhaps it was out of place for me to post this, but seeing as I am a wee bit drunk at the moment, I don't mind. I think this rubric is a bit off-course for what the purpose of role-playing is, and I seriously doubt that the tantalizing carrot of an "outstanding reward" will motivate players to complete a role-play more than the simple satisfaction of writing one does. I am not saying that it shouldn't happen; by all means, go for it. But you can count me out.

That is my two-cents, perhaps to be deleted in the morning. Depends on how I feel...

Silvone, I can see where this attitude might come from, RP's are extremely hard to complete. However, IT CAN BE DONE. I had an excellent GM on another site and participated in an RP that lasted 2 years (and some change). We finished it and it was spectacular. I'd link you, but half of the RP was erased by a childish forum administrator. We still have about half, but I'd have to ask the other members if I could link it here.

Also, you don't have to make your role-plays shorter, guys. It's simply a suggestion if you want to complete a role-play. That's not to say that it's impossible to complete a role-play with a longer game. It only means that you can try it to see if it works for you and if you like it. You do not have to have a short completed game in order to have your game judged.

I know exactly what you're talking about Kathryn. I recently began an RP called The Mirror, it was later changed to episode 1 of a three part series. I'm not shortening the RP. Its like writing books. Would the LotR series have been near as good if it was compressed into a single book? No! The trilogy aspect is what makes it so amazing. I'm trying to accomplish the same thing for my RP, hopefully, I can do it. I have the utmost faith in my members, and we're almost halfway completed with the first installment.

To be blunt, my sweet, while I think it is an interesting idea, and I would say writing a solo story that critical feedback is a MUST, this all feels a little bit too much like a 'gamer score' to me.

What I mean by that is an arbitrary point grading system with which people can have virtual pissing contests about whose is 'longer' if you catch my meaning. Ahem.

Honestly, there are so many factors that go into a roleplay that a lot of these wouldn't really speak much to individual talents. One awesome person does not make a great roleplay. And unless you have one person dominating the flow of an RP it's really hard to say a roleplay is going to go one way or another. In a way that's kind of the point.

I think it would be sad to see someone try to control a roleplay in order to hit the points in the above mentioned rubric. But I guess to each their own.

Excuse me if I anger, or offend you in any way Misery, that is not my intention.

I beg to differ Misery. As a GM, I let the story flow I'd like to say and develop, but there is a plot the characters are following. [sucky metaphor] I'm not letting the members run wild, but instead have given them a good amount of space to roam. [/sucky metaphor] Saying this, I am directing them on a path. Yet, this path is much like a Bioware title in execution. There are many choices, and though the story-line is somewhat decided, the paths are many and the ending is flexible.

--------

As for finishing RP's just looking the casual section I'd say two RP's are rising stars at the moment. I suggest all who don't think its possible to look at the progress of Viemera foremost and then The Mirror.

[Misery]

No offense taken, Artorius. I only did DM/GMing a few times, and you bring up a good point.

[Artorius]

No offense taken, Artorius. I only did DM/GMing a few times, and you bring up a good point.

Thanks Misery (like the avi by the way) I really appreciate that. I'm glad I'm not the only Bioware nerd on this forum.

[Sólrökr]

I am by no means an authority on things of this sort, nor do I disapprove of this idea when I say this, but there is a large difference between RPing and writing a story. Though we may applaud RPs of great strength, they are dynamically different from an authorial pursuit. Because of this difference, it will be hard to practically view each piece as a literary whole, and must be assessed as parts, even perhaps as parts per author. This is truly daunting for the reviewers, and I wonder if there may be a better means of critiquing, while still implementing some sort of hall-of-fame for the good RPs.

With that said, I think this is a great idea. Its execution I do not envy though.

[Fate Flyer]

This grading rubric was designed for those people who, after their role-play has been finished, would like to get it reviewed. It is purely optional, and is only available to those with a completed role-play who wish to. If not everyone involved in the completed RP do not wish to have it critiqued, then the person or persons who do can contact Christoph privately for a review strictly on their own posts.

In addition to applying to concluded role-plays, this rubric was designed for rating contest entries as well, to give judges a more defined rubric when reviewing each entrant. Obviously, when people enter contests, they are already expecting to be graded on their abilities and compared to the others that entered, and this rubric gives judges a better and more effective and fair way to carry out with their jobs.

So, in short -- completed role-plays can be judged if they want to be, but it's by no means obligatory, just a nice option you writers have. Contests now have a much more in-depth way for entries to be judged, so all those who participated can feel better knowing that their stories were looked at from all kinds of angles rather than judges just being able to say, "I liked it," or "It could have been better." xD

(The length of contests is already determined in the contest rules, but the length of role-play posts can be as long as any writer desires. Simply trying to shorten them was just one suggestion in order to try and finish a role-play. It's by no means the only way to try and finish.)

I do understand where Misery is coming from though with the status bars with different tiers for the mini profiles. I can see how that could not be such a favorite thing for everyone, especially since members wouldn't be able to control whether or not it is displayed.

[Dreamless Days]

I know exactly what you're talking about Kathryn. I recently began an RP called The Mirror, it was later changed to episode 1 of a three part series. I'm not shortening the RP. Its like writing books. Would the LotR series have been near as good if it was compressed into a single book? No! The trilogy aspect is what makes it so amazing. I'm trying to accomplish the same thing for my RP, hopefully, I can do it. I have the utmost faith in my members, and we're almost halfway completed with the first installment.

Dude, same kinda thing with me. Even though I only just started here a few months ago, I thought I'd through an RP in the mix. While planning it I realized that it was a bit long to run as a full RP (The other site I RP on would look at it as being waaaay too long. No chance of finishing it there because everyone is lazy apparently.). As a result, I am separating it into multiple chapters. So while they will be shorter than the average RP Threads I've been looking at, it's because they are nowhere near a complete story. (Also, splitting them into chapters gives me the best reasoning for time skips, haha).

Other than that, I like the look of the Tier thing in general. I mean, I personally LIKE competition (Not that I'm saying it IS one). And being able to see a fellow RPer who is "Ranked" higher than me would be cool. It would really give the incentive to say "Man, I wish I could be as good as that guy/girl!", and push myself to achieve that goal. And maybe other members would look at it this way too? Hell, I got told the other day by someone on this very SITE that having a goal is one of the most important things to have. In that case, it doesn't look like it's a BAD idea to have something like that now does it?

[The Ghost Writer]

Saying this, I am directing them on a path. Yet, this path is much like a Bioware title in execution. There are many choices, and though the story-line is somewhat decided, the paths are many and the ending is flexible.

_{(couldn't resist)}

[Gadreille]

I have issues with it, some have been addressed, others not. No point in voicing them, as this seems to be sticking around regardless.

It's opt-out though, so consider this my official opt-out. I suggest you make a list.

[Guest]

I think all of this is a wonderful idea, especially in regards to role-plays and providing incentive to finishing stories. And I don't understand the complaints coming from people who think it's a bad idea. First of all, as has already been said...you don't have to participate. So, all of this worry about whether or not competition is fair or having achievements marked is good or not doesn't even apply to you nor will it apply to anybody who gets upset about being judged because you and those people won't be submitting anything(although, if you do end up finishing a role-play, I cannot imagine that you'd feel such a lack of pride in it to not want to show it off).

Second, this is for completed role-plays(and as Fate stated, actual contests). If you do not have one, then there is no need for you to worry and if you're one of those people who doesn't feel like finishing something is important, then I don't understand why you're in here complaining either. Because you won't be submitting anything(since you don't plan on completing a role-play) so it does not apply to you.

I'm really sorry if this seems blunt or rude, but I seriously don't understand why you're in here complaining if it does not affect you and you don't plan on participating. I can understand complaining about the way it works or offering suggestions, but to not have it at all makes the rest of us who DO like it miss out on it(especially when you don't even have to participate it's really unfair for those of us who DO want to enter eventually). Nothing to get upset about, because as was stated, nothing on the site has been finished yet, but I just felt the general attitude from some was kind of out of place.

Also, those who say having this goal is not incentive for completing role-plays, I would also have to disagree. Because I'M in a role-play right now that I'm very proud of and which I do plan on completing and it would be a great treat to submit it here when we're finished and feel EXTRA accomplished from having reached a goal and finished something and been rewarded for it. So, some people WILL feel enlivened and enjoy the competitiveness of it and I don't think there is anything wrong with having a spot to show off such accomplishments on the profiles somewhere. It is not intended to make others feel down or look down on themselves, but as Chainlinc said, to encourage others and give them something to look forward to. When you reach goals and accomplish things here, it means something.

And finally, for those who think judging role-plays for worth on writing ability is worthless, first of all, it's text-based games, okay? You're writing a story, with someone else. That's what it is. You either do it well or you don't and here on FoG there are higher standards of what is expected from the writers and as was already stated some of the members here actually ARE writers. So, these games are practice for a lot of us. I do not think there is anything wrong with encouraging better quality in stories rather than making them ALL just pointless games that go nowhere and die after 2 pages because nobody freaking cares enough.

Just my thoughts. Peace.

[Fate Flyer]

I have issues with it, some have been addressed, others not. No point in voicing them, as this seems to be sticking around regardless.

It's opt-out though, so consider this my official opt-out. I suggest you make a list.

There's no need for a list, Ryona. Having completed role-plays reviewed is, as has been stated, only optional. Once a role-play is finished and moved into the Concluded Role-Plays forum, the GM will be contacted by one of the staff, asking if they are interested in having it reviewed. If not, then it won't be. If so, then it will be. Simple as that. While you may not be interested in having your role-plays reviewed, others involved may be, and if that is the case, then their own posts can be reviewed privately through PM.



Ten, thank you for taking the time to say all that. You basically said it all.

It's an option to have only concluded role-plays reviewed, so there is no need to get upset that this is a new thing we are offering if you don't want it, since it is only there if you'd like. The other half the rubric is so staff judges will have a more appropriate, official, and proper way to judge contest entries.

Previously, there was no incentive to finish a role-play at all, other than to have it moved into its own forum for all concluded RPs. We all thought it might be nice to have just a bit more of a reward to finishing up a RP, and that was the option to have your writing, which you put so much time and effort into, critiqued. As writers, most of us are interested in hearing both ways that we can improve and having all our ideas and efforts praised, which would be the results of having your RP reviewed if you desired. I'm sorry if this is such a tragedy to some people and a negative thing. We only wished to offer you guys a bit more, as we are a more serious writing forum, and reviews help us to grow, understand from an outsider's perspective, and get someone else to enjoy our stories.

Reviewing and critiquing finished role-plays is actually something that's pretty common on other role-playing message boards that we have been lacking for a long time, especially being one to take writing more seriously than a lot of those RP boards out there. I believe this is a feature we have been needing and makes us feel a bit more complete as a writing and role-playing community.

[Bird of Hermes]

This is an optional feature to give feedback to completed role-plays. It is not meant to be a competition, ranking scheme or anything else. The rubric also serves as such for writing contests, but that is beside the point.

If people really are opposed to this, it can be done away with, but I really do not see the harm in it.

The purpose of the rubric was never meant to be so people could say that one role-play is better than another.

[Christoph]

I am by no means an authority on things of this sort, nor do I disapprove of this idea when I say this, but there is a large difference between RPing and writing a story. Though we may applaud RPs of great strength, they are dynamically different from an authorial pursuit. Because of this difference, it will be hard to practically view each piece as a literary whole, and must be assessed as parts, even perhaps as parts per author. This is truly daunting for the reviewers, and I wonder if there may be a better means of critiquing, while still implementing some sort of hall-of-fame for the good RPs.

With that said, I think this is a great idea. Its execution I do not envy though.

You raise a valid concern, but one of the many things that I love about this site is that some of the RPs transcend roleplaying and become "cooperative writing". Some threads (for example, my 40k project) lean further to the "role-playing" side and therefore wouldn't be a good choice for review. Other threads would benefit much more from it. In short, not every thread needs to be reviewed, nor should every thread be reviewed, to be perfectly honest.

[Sólrökr]

Indeed that would be the goal. I would be interested in reading the ones that do transcend, and I can only guess that they have very strong lines of communication in between posts, with ample forethought.

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