Taking the history of my world a little farther?

[Profitofrage]

Hello everyone Mike here

I have not posted nor joined any RP's yet simply because ive been working HOURS AND HOURS on putting the large world i have been creating on paper (around 2% complete so far).

basically i was talking to a good friend of mine, who after asking a few questions suddenly asked me about the worlds technological advancements.
Now My world did have science e.t.c so yes there were era's when scientific achievment was valued as much as magic...so i explained it to her but something she brang up shook my mind significantly into a twirl of ideas and the URGE to write.
She asked why despite having thousands of years of oppertunity the world never progressed much farther then "crossbows and the odd cannon" and that any real technology had to be magically powered.

Basically i was confronted with an idea....i have thousands of years of history for my world and im forever making more and more...is it time that i finally pull out of the "fantasy" genre....and allow it to spill into a 1945 like setting? as in finally begin to change this world of mine into progressing further then just swords and fireballs?

My main sort of interest of course would be the wars, and how different races would form countries/weapons/technology. The idea of how advanced technology would coexist with magic and the gods e.t.c of my world inrigues me to no end....but should i really push forward? should i keep my world teh way it was? or should i take a risk and go for it?

what do you think people of FOG
(for more information PM ME-----> may be making my first RP here :O)

[Weiss]

Alright, since you're asking for opinions, I'll throw a couple things at you for consideration.

You're asking if it's time to break out of the medieval setting, because you were posed with the question of why, in spite of thousands of years worth of development, the people of your world hadn't developed beyond crossbows and catapults. This can be answered simply by looking back at the history of mankind.

Technological development is very much a field that evolves through the snowball effect. As our available technology becomes more advanced, we are capable of advancing even more in an even shorter period of time. Humans have existed for at least tens of thousands of years. So, in spite of all that time, why did we only advance to such technological heights within the last thousand years?

First, we have to examine the propensity of the human race to rest on our laurels, patting ourselves on the back and basking in the glow of our supremacy with the thought, "We have created something that cannot be surpassed through human means." A quick example of this mindset would be the human understanding of our solar system. For decades, everyone was content to believe that the Earth was the center of the universe and everything else moved around it accordingly. We had no reason to believe that, but it was something that conveniently fit within our scope of logic. We exist on Earth and there is no life except that which is here on Earth, so everything else must revolve around the place where we exist.

Turns out, that wasn't the case. While most people were content to believe that humans and their celestial ship were the center of existence, there were a couple of people who went further into the fray and came out with a new realization - the SUN is actually the center of the solar system, and there are even things beyond that!

So we killed them. Okay, we didn't kill them (this time), but we punished them for heresy, because it went against what we considered kosher. Because scientific advancement was being stifled, it took longer than it otherwise might have to see the same amount of progress. Furthermore, if there had been more inquisitive minds who looked beyond the obvious and studied the world around them without accepting what seems to be, we might have found out about all of these things even earlier!

So, reason #1 why limited advancement is attained during the early ages of cultural development: the potent mix of arrogance and ignorance.

What's the next reason? War, of course! I'm not talking about the actual fighting out on the battlefield. Truth be told, war is the single greatest motivator for technological advancement. Penicillin, for instance, was discovered during World War II and quickly applied to medical practice during the final years of struggle. The conversion of coal into oil was another discovery made by the Nazis in WWII, and while it's economically inefficient and unreliable, it was a huge technological development during its era.

Enough about that, though. What I originally meant was that the separation of peoples into confined groups limits technological advancement just as much as war helps it. Imagine how far we could go if, instead of working on newer, more powerful weapons to kill each other, we turned the whole world's aim toward a new and reliable energy source that could sustain a growing population over the new few millennia. Imagine if, instead of fighting one another over territory, material goods and power, the people of B.C. had worked together to continually expand upon their existing technologies.

Reason #2 why limited advancement is attained during the early ages of cultural development: selfishness; the constant want to control everything around us, including our fellow man.

If you apply Reason #2 to a world where there are not one, but multiple sentient races (i.e. - elves, orcs, trolls, goblins, dwarves, gnomes, etc.), you create even more war and gravely limit technological advancement due to fewer times of peace.

So, what should you be drawing out of all this? Basically, deciding whether or not your world should take a leap through technological advancement and start dropping hydrogen bombs instead of giant rocks depends on whether or not such advancement can be reasonably attained within the given environment. To make that type of decision, you either have to leap in blindly, creating an unstable world with no history that serves no greater purpose than being an RP setting, or you have to map things out so explicitly that you can explain the reasons why each technological advancement was made if it's brought into question.

Do you think your world allows for such advancement? Do the races work together to create a higher standard of living for all sentient life, or do they battle it out in the typical fashion, stagnating on technological advancement in favor of new weapons and magical incantations that can slay their enemies more efficiently?

Speaking of that, magic brings a whole new element to the concept of technological development. If magic is an integral part of your world, you can pretty much assume that magic will be incorporated into the advancing technology, much the way we've incorporated fossil fuels into ours. To them, mana (or whatever force powers their magic) could be the same as petroleum is to us. Thus, they would naturally invent things with the assumption that magic could be used to power them. That opens a lot of doors, but also means that the types of things they would create might be less scientifically sound. For instance, where we have to use combustible fuels, they could simply use an enchanted rock to provide the same level of power. As such, their "engines" might be a great deal less complex due to a concentrated power source.

I think that's enough from me for now. Just some details to stew over while deciding whether or not it's the right time to take the leap into the future of technology.

[Profitofrage]

OK ill start by saying i love your post to bits XP

I have thought about all that and i believe it is possible, i have done something very similar in the past where Magic was used to power massive machines, but due to MASSIVE unbelievably destructive wars many technologies and even magical knowledge was lost.
There are many races in my world and with it ALOT of conflict which as you say can both increase and Decrease technological advances in various ways.
My idea for the change was that a god in my world basically...causes a restructuring of the world itself..and through various means limits magic to a large extent and basically obliterates all the demi-gods/powerful mythical beings and daemons from the world.
This act basically forcing "magic" to be far less able to meet societies needs for war e.t.c
That coupled with people finally breaking away from monarchies and other governemental changes i think i could break away from fantasy and move into a 1945 like setting.

I am just really intrigued with the idea of what scientists would do with suits of Mithrilium armor (completly indestructible but also cannot be melted/remade without long lost magical techniques) or how scientists would actually be religious due to the fact they KNOW there is a wisdom god that rewards scientific ventures?
Or the idea that a farmer may have to not just worry about foxes, but the odd minatour?
The idea that elves might be forced to the back of the bus in some countries due to racism?
my question basically is....should i stick with swords and catapults? or should i venture into Guns and grenades?

[Ehoron]

You're looking at this from a slightly erred point of view. You're making the assumption that one must pick a level of technological and magical development and slap the sticker across the board. This doesn't have to be the case. There a number of other contributing and mitigating forces that contribute in addition to the ones mentioned my Weiss.

1) You have to look at the geographic and population spreads of your world. Is the world uniform in appearance, weather, and availability of materials?

Geography shapes whether a culture can survive the beginnings of civilization, but it also represents a ceiling for that civilization, should it remain solely in that location. For example, a civilization that lives in an area with abundant water and lumber could probably develop a nice civilization. But if there are no mines with 400 miles of it, then progressing past a certain civilized age will be much more difficult. To pull an example from Rise of Nations, Food, Timber, Metal, Wealth, and Knowledge all represent generalized groups of materials required for technological advancement.

Weather also shapes the development of civilization. If it's arctic 70% of the year, that tends to stunt technological growth. If the weather is nearly ideal, then technology can flourish. Seasons also impact advancement; Are they mild, are they extreme? This is something else that you'll have to decide for yourself. In areas with very high humidity, metals are going to readily rust. In areas with less water might experience more frequent droughts, crop loss, or fires.

Recap #1: Geographic and weather patterns are powerful tools in the development of technology. Some regions might progress faster than other.

2) Do Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, and Humans all live together or are they their own separate, individual cultures? To take it a step further, are there sub-groups of Dwarves and Elves, just like there of humans?

Cultural boundaries and diversity also serve a role in developing technology. If you play by the traditional roles of the races, Elves tend to stay in woods while Dwarves seek out mountains. Depending on inter-species mingling, technology can be pushed forward or held back. Elves, traditionally, aren't too fond of lesser, more chaotic races like say Humans, and are loathe to exchange technology [Kind of like Vulcans in that aspect].

A part two of this question also stems from species longevity. Elves live longer life spans that humans do. As a result, a single Elven scientist could do the work of ten human scientists in his lifetime. Birthrates are also contributing factors. At the same time, because Elves live longer lives, they're not usually as pressed to make grand discoveries.

Recap #2: Race plays an important hand in whether technological progression occurs normally, slower, or faster. It also determines whether the progression is uniform or not.

3) The big one; Religion. If history is to be believed, then the Catholic church wielded it's influence for many centuries and squashed all scientific progress that it felt threatened the Church. Religion will generally wage a non-physical, metaphorical war with science as many religious people see science as an attempt to destroy religion, and many scientists would see religion as a means of halting scientific progress. However, some religious and scientific groups can intermingle without the slightest bit of anger or malice.

Recap #3: Religion can either severely limit scientific progress for a time, or it can let it go on it's way.

Generally, scientific development is not uniform, so at any one time you could have three, four, or seven different levels of technology in the same world. Also, magic is generally an alternative to science. Those with it only need to reach a certain scientific level of development before magical studies and development takes precedence. Conversely, science is generally fueled by making the impossible possible for those without magic.

So one group might have low scientific development, but might be quite magical in power, which would make of for the aforementioned weak scientific profile.

[Profitofrage]

^_^ lol thank you all for your knowledge and comments but i assure you i have considered all those factors. My questions really wasnt "How could i explain the technological advancement" as i could easily do that with all the things mentioned above. i dont plan to just leap forward technologicall all of a sudden XD i plan to do it within a thousand year period. What im saying is SHOULD I?
should i just stick to my traditional roots with my world and continue building more and more histoy based in a gothic medieval sort of style...or should i delve into the higher tech levels and create a unique environment where magic, science and mythical beings cross into the fabric of a 1940's era?

[Ehoron]

It really depends on you, what you want, and what you're comfortable with.

If you think you can make it 1940's and not compromise the integrity of your story, then go for it.

At the same time, you could always start it off in high fantasy and move into more modern settings at a later date if you feel it's the right move.

[Profitofrage]

that does makes alot of sense :]
i think maybe ill make up some RP's set in the similar setting :] get my sudden urge to do it out of my system and if i find it does fit and is fullfilling ill work on it further

[Fluesopp]

Have you considered steam-punk? I find that a really nice mix between magic and science and I believe that it is what the world would evolve to if there was magic in it.

Anyway, I'm also considering creating a world of my own and I'd like to hear how you started, and how you progress. I'm stuck trying to start making things. Do I start with defining all the races, or the land, or do I start with religion, or perhaps just one land and one race? I'm always thinking about everything, which makes it hard to write down one thing without getting inconsistent.

[Kesteven]

I'm also a fan of steampunk, as well as anything that goes beyond the clammy reach of standard fantasy, as it opens up all kinds of unexplored possibilities. A unique and interesting world inspires unique and interesting stories.

On the other hand, as someone that also often feels the compulsion to develop vast and incredible worlds, I feel I should caution you a little. Firstly, there's always the risk that after your gigantic world is complete, nobody will be interested in it. In fact, making a world that's too developed risks scaring people away with the volume of information they have to internalize just to begin, without even factoring in the complexities of the story. Secondly, the more time you spend on the world, the less time there is to spend on making the plot and characters truly gripping, and this is what really makes any story worth reading. In my opinion, setting should always be subservient to the story; the setting is only of interest insofar as it creates situations which we as players and readers can relate to on a personal level. Thirdly, while storytelling skills, literacy and aesthetic depth, are valuable and versatile skills in the real world, the skills involved in inventing a world can be rather limited in application, and less worth developing.

So in answer to your actual question, Profitofrage, I agree with Ehoron that you need to consider what you enjoy, what the story requires, and what kind of setting is most suitable for providing for those.
I'd also add that perhaps as a means of transition you could include a small race or civilisation which is 'technologically advanced' (even if that's just muskets and indoor toilets). If you start the players 'outside' of this civilization, not only will encountering it make for an interesting narrative in itself, but it also gives you a lot of options on how to proceed. If the addition of technology goes well, you could reveal that the civilization has more tech it's been hiding, bringing the tech level up. Other factions could steal or buy technologies, plunging the world into a technological revolution. Or, if you decide it's not worth it, you could have the other civilizations gang up on the advanced one and crush it, getting rid of the technologically advanced elements without compromising the integrity of the world.

Just be warned that no matter how carefully crafted the world is, there's always a risk that nothing will come of it and it will simply vanish into dew, leaving the hours you spent on it essentially wasted. Of course, if you simply enjoy world-invention for it's own sake, that's not a problem.

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