Re: Forgive Me For Being a Cynical Bastard, But...

[Weiss]

Sorry, I'm only really posting because of Kathryn's above statement about being average.

That said: Kathryn, you were joking, right? Average? Seriously? I would love to see what you consider attractive.


Side note: Welcome to the forum, I guess. My personal stand on your whole "elitist ego-strokers" thing is to just leave if you find out you don't like the site. If I can motivate myself to write more than that just to convince one close-minded person that he's wrong, I'll send you a PM.

[Gadreille]

Go Kathryn, go Kathryn! You've got the men drooling at your feet.

(Forgive me for going off topic. It had to be said.)

[Kathryn Lacey]

Well, if that must be said, then I, too, must say something... or a few somethings...

Emerald, if I happened to live in Ireland as a small portion of my heritage- on my mother's side- is Irish, would I be less attractive to you? Then again, I don't really look as Irish as I do Scandinavian as I am on my father's side... so... who knows? The grass is greener theory rests regardless. I tend to find people more attractive if they don't have my colouring, for instance, so I don't blame you.

Weiss, I am average. I have simply taken so many photographs of myself that I know which angles suit me best. Also, while I am not ashamed of my acne in real life, I can't stand to see it marring a photograph, so I always edit that out of the images. I'm quite adept at it.

Also, I would just like to say that just because I view acne as something to mar a photograph, doesn't mean I view it as something so terrible in person. I just think that photographs should be taken to portray something as aesthetically pleasing as possible, so if I need to edit out the blemishes or the litter in the background or something, I do it. I also hate taking photographs that make use of false light though I have had to do that on some occasions. Sunlight ((with a few clouds in the sky to filter that light)) is the best possible lighting for photographs that one can get, so I utilize it as often as I am able.

However, I will say that my acne ((of which I have a lot)), in combination with the facial scars it has caused, my eczema, and my bordering-on-unhealthy physique do diminish my attractiveness to a degree. I'm sure without them I would still be among the average ranks, but perhaps a little higher among those who are considered average.

Here, I'll give you a comparison shot to show that specific camera angles make all the difference.

All three of these are from April 22nd, 2008.
1. This is the one from the entire batch that day that I like of myself. It's a great angle for me. The way the shadows lie also helps a lot.
2. This angle is not as forgiving, nor as appealing. The shadows are also a hindrance. Likewise, my glasses- being a strong prescription, make the curve of my cheek look... malformed. I also hate how apparent the gaps in my teeth are, and the fact that I couldn't quite edit the acne on my chin as well as I would have liked.
3. This image has the same issues as the one before it.

((Yes. That is Pee Wee Herman on my shirt.))

[Weiss]

Well, I can understand the acne thing. The rest of your complaints are falling on deaf ears, though.

1. You clearly haven't read the item description on glasses.

Prescription Glasses
Accessory
Equip: Increases sight.
Equip: When worn by an attractive female, grants a 1.5x modifier to physical appearance.

2. There are tons of people in the world who don't have perfect teeth (myself included), and I really don't think it's that big of a deal. If you take good care of them, brushing and flossing and using mouth wash, I personally don't think they need to be perfectly aligned and spaced to be a positive feature.

3. You could probably get rid of your acne using one of those medications that's available these days, but if you're not bothered by it, then I say editing it out of your photographs is completely unnecessary. You have lovely eyes, beautiful hair, a perfectly untanned complexion and excellent facial structure. Anyone who could look past all of that and say something as flagrantly mindless as, "Oh, you have acne..." needs to be shot.

@Ryona: I don't believe in drooling. It's beneath my principles. I just don't like seeing someone's self-esteem being smothered by groundless doubts and misled judgments. On the other hand, if it reaches the point where a person seems to be fishing for compliments by acting like they have no self-esteem, I usually take the other side of the field and fuel the fire...

Side note: I realize this isn't really the thread for this kind of discussion, but let's be realistic: the new line of conversation is much more interesting than the original.

[Kathryn Lacey]

Getting rid of acne isn't as simple as saying, "Here! Wash your skin with this treatment!" Often times, I have found that when I battle my acne, my eczema worsens and vice versa, considering acne is due to the oily and eczema is due to the dry.

I've learned that I would much rather have the acne over the eczema because it doesn't itch or burn or hurt the way eczema does... plus... Infected eczema is incredibly disgusting looking... and feeling... but it becomes that way insanely quickly. I actually hate my acne, but if it means not having eczema, I'm not going to be ashamed of it. After all, I feel hideous when I get the damned rash on my face which happens once a year when winter and heating systems dry the air... When that time comes, I don't even feel fit for the average ranks of beauty, but that's just me.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that I'm unattractive. I'm just saying that my beauty doesn't stand out any more than the next blond haired blue eyed girl with light skin. Really, it's probably a good thing. I don't need anything boosting my ego to maximum capacity. It could be disastrous.

Anyway, if it's any consolation, I laughed when you wrote, "Equip: When worn by an attractive female, grants a 1.5x modifier to physical appearance." ^^_^^

[Kalon Ordona II]

You're seriously quite attractive, Kathryn. You're just extra-gorgeous at the proper angle. You don't have to be a super-model. They don't look real anyway.

Also, Weiss is extra-right about the glasses.

....And I guess I'm extra-into extra-things. *points to line 3* *points to line 1*

Anyway, I didn't even notice the acne, to be honest. You had me at the eyes. ^_^

[Emerald]

Sorry to ruin your theory, but no one invited me here. I just found it via word of mouth and joined. No lavished praise was given, nor needed.

Meh, that's semantics. This entire site is founded on the principles that in order to use it you must be of a "higher standard than the average person." There's a palpable culture of egotism here, from the "we are the best of the brightest" mentality, to the self-involved notions of writing as some kind of divine art that must be respected like a deity. Just check out the Writing forum. Notice anything? There's hundreds of stories posted, but nobody ever bothers commenting on anything but their own, or their friend's. Everyone's just worried about "pursuing their own artistic instincts", and don't care all that much about anyone else's.

I'm not asserting this as a universal truth, or anything, I'm just saying this is the impression I'm getting based on what I can observe. As an observer. And an outsider, who hasn't bought into the whole "be one of the elite" idea.


I didn't start this thread just to annoy folk. I'm giving people the chance to state their opinions on the subject of whether this place ought to put on as much airs as it does. I found it elitist. Is it really necessary to stress how superior the community is? (Especially considering it's just a community made up of a few people from a bunch of other communities, which started a couple months ago. I mean, I could see if it was 10 years old and had a reputation for excellence, but right now it's really just blowing your own horns...)

[Guest]

The general purpose of this thread was to rattle the cage a bit and see what happens. See, elitists and manipulative egomaniacs are a cautious prey, that like to camouflage themselves with insincerity and fake pleasantries (while secretly thinking how much better they are). It can be hard to tell them from the honest people. Until they get offended. The way to tell is that they blow it waaay out of proportion and start turning everyone against you (manipulatively) to try and defend themselves.

Something which I haven't quite noticed yet.

Also, it was funny.

I didn't start this thread just to annoy folk.

Really?

[Kathryn Lacey]

Well, he did say he didn't start this thread just to annoy people... He may have had a couple of motivations behind it, including a topic of discussion along with annoying people. =3

Also, I see nothing wrong with blowing one's own horn. I wouldn't want to blow yours for instance, Emerald. ^^_^^;;

[Emerald]

Not just to annoy folk

...
I also did it to flirt with hot chicks.


And, I lolled at "you're too closed-minded, so I'm not even going to listen to you or acknowledge your argument and instead hi-jack the thread to flirt with some girl lalala"

(Not to be sarcastic or anything. I mean, I did find it funny...)


Edit: That "someone posted before you, are you sure you want to still post?" thing is annoying. Useful, but annoying. I didn't notice Kathryn stole my joke and it made me look stoopid

Also, nobody's really been refuting my points here. It's all just been
OMGZ STOP JUDGING ME AGHHH

Which is a symptom of a large and easily-bruisable ego. (Yes I just made up the word 'bruisable')

Honestly though, I wouldn't bother if I didn't care about any of you. I kinda like you guys (even the ones with no sense of humour), and I'm just playing Devil's Advocate because the elitism is something that bothered me, and I'm sure I'm not the only person who's ever been bothered by it. Maybe if you toned it down, more dashing, charming, amazing people like me would hang around...

[Weiss]

I'm not a moderator for this forum or anything, but I'd like to point out how much of a waste of time this is.

Part of the appeal of this site is the level of maturity maintained by most of the patrons here. If you were really concerned with finding out the truth about whether or not this community deserves its superficial air of superiority, you would dive in and find out for yourself.

We're not here to be elite. We're not here to be the greatest writers of all time. We're not even here because the invitation was properly formatted and used tight-laced terminology in lieu of Netspeak. We're here because the idea of a forum community dedicated to excellence in roleplay was appealing. If that's not why you're here, you probably won't fit in, and it might be best if you leave to avoid causing stress for yourself or the other members.

I can appreciate your desire to establish a truth-or-fiction label for the site's professed quality, but defaming the forum in your introduction thread without making so much as a single contributory post is childish; it goes against that very defining maturity that I enjoy about this site.

Maturity, at its basic roots, is the ability to distinguish when it is and is not appropriate to act childish. We joke around, we play games, we might even say things that are completely idiotic or random, but we love to roleplay, we love to write, and we enjoy being in the company of others with a similar mindset. As such, we appreciate that you have taken an interest in the site, but it would be very much more appreciated if you could start acting more like someone who deserved an invitation to begin with.

While this community is open to anyone who would like to take part, Fate chose to invite you not because you couldn't have joined without an invitation, but because we, as a collective, want people like you to find and take part in this community as soon as possible. We do not seek praise. We do not seek approval. We seek to have fun. The rules are established to please the greatest majority while weeding out the greatest majority of those who would become non-contributory or detrimental members. Please respect that.

Note: Since Emerald made a post while I was writing my own, there may or may not be inconsistencies above. If there are, just ignore them and try to apply what I've said retrospectively.

[Emerald]

Again. Writing me off as 'childish' and valiantly defending the forums is pointless (because I'm not attacking the forums, or its content, or its members). You're twisting everything so that you don't have to face what you don't want to (the impression it gives).

Saying "just join the forums and decide for yourself" is not a valid answer or counter-argument to "is this place as elitist as it sounds, and if not, why do you make it sound so elitist (in the previous ways I pointed out)?"


And, heh, all this crap about 'maturity' and 'childishness'... You know what that sounds like? Elitism.
Poise and formality is not a substitute for empathy.

Do I strike you as a 'non-contributory' member, eh? Not deserving of an invitation? Why? 'Cause I speak my mind and ignore social hierarchies? (Ooh, you're a noob, you're supposed to be humble and gracious and never disagree with anyone with a superior post count)

So, I don't deserve an invitation (of course, you didn't state that outright, you only implied it subtly. Sly)? It can't be based on my writing skill, because you haven't seen that yet. And it can't be because I've broken the rules, because I'm fairly sure some well-worded arguments and a few off-colour jokes doesn't fly in the face of forum policy. So, it's my personality. Turning me away because I act too common. OHH, THAT's not elitist.

It may seem like I'm being closed-minded, but I'm really not. I'm just being scientific. Presenting a hypothesis, and using analysis to gather evidence either for or against.



It's like, there's this college in Dublin, called 'Trinity'. It's been in the city for ages (one of the oldest and most prestigious in Europe) and has always been under British influence. It has a reputation for being great (it's like the Harvard or Oxford of Ireland), but also for being pretentious. Because it is. There's people who go there who aren't douchebags, and there's lots who are (and lots who go there and become douchebags). It's also hard to get in to (unless you're doing science, because the way the Irish system is, that's never hard to get in to, but none of that fits the metaphor anyway).

The point is, Trinity changes people. It's a badge of honour, getting into Trinity, and everyone knows it. A cloud of smug hangs over that place. Especially because it's a tourist attraction, and there's always Americans floating around telling all the Irish people who go to school there how awesome and lucky they are. After a while, it gets into people's souls.

Anyway, for that reason, I've always been suspicious of institutions founded on the basis of excellence and superiority.

[Weiss]

You say that you’re attacking neither the forum nor its content and community, but you’re actually doing all of the above. An attack does not need to be something as obvious as a knife to the gut. You’re essentially implying that the forum caters to an elitist mindset and that the members are, as such, elitist ego-strokers who are here only to feed upon the adoration of others. Hiding your insults behind a jovial nature does little to detract from the truth. It’s merely a method of evading responsibility for your own words; as such, it is childish.

Telling you to join the forums and decide for yourself is the only valid counter-argument to your skepticism. Your entire argument is based on the fact that you dislike the air of superiority on the site, but any defense presented is shot down immediately regardless of its merit. Unless you’re saying that my simply telling you that the site is well-deserving of its pretentious air will assuage you and give you the reassurance that you need to become an active member of the forums, I don’t think there is another valid method for you to find out if this site is fit for you. No one can make a decision for you, and your quarrelsome nature prevents even the minute possibility that it could happen. You’re expecting the entire community to cater to your whim, which is childish.

Throughout your entire introduction thread, you’ve done nothing but question the principles conveyed by the board without asking a single pertinent question. You haven’t asked why we have a paragraph and sentence limit. You also haven’t asked why invitations are given out to specific individuals. You simply presume that these are methods to retain our “superiority”, rather than viewing them as safeguards against that which this forum was established to escape: illiterate children who create two-second character sheets for no greater reason than because they want everyone to see just how awesome they are.

You aren’t being scientific at all, because you aren’t seeking an answer. You’re merely seeking to “rattle the cage”, as you so aptly put it. You also have not presented a hypothesis. All you’ve given is a cynical evaluation of what you proclaim to be a pretentious establishment full of egoists. Furthermore, you’ve done so without having established the purpose behind any of the site’s regulations beforehand. Thus, you are not being scientific. You are being presumptuous and arrogant.

I did not intend for my statement to be sly or ambiguous. I thought I was being quite clear when I implied that you aren’t the type of person whom I feel deserved an invitation. Your writing is obviously up to par, unless you’re simply dictating to a well-trained typist who evaluates your spoken lines and translates them into properly formatted text, but that isn’t the problem to begin with. I’ll say again that we aren’t a community based around the concept of becoming the greatest writers of our age. We are here to have fun and improve. If you are here and are neither contributing to nor reaping the benefits of said fun, then you are either non-contributory or detrimental. If those statements hold true, then you should not have been invited to the site, because it was clearly an error of judgment. Therein you find the reasoning behind my statements, which should adequately debase your again-presumptuous evaluation of the all-important question: why?

You say that I’m twisting everything to look away from the pretentiousness of the forum, but that isn’t the case. I’m acknowledging that aspect of the boards and explaining why it deserves to be heralded in such a fashion. If you are so bent on the scientific method, then you should be aware that science does not take an idea and try to prove it right; it analyzes a theory in an attempt to prove it wrong. If you do not adequately present your question, you will not receive an adequate response. As such, the fact that you expect everyone to cater to your desires, humbly gratify your opinions and answer your unspoken questions in spite of your seeming desire to avoid truly asking them is both childish and immature.

I should note, for the record, that I am not such a humble person. I know my faults quite well, and I am also fully aware of my strengths. Furthermore, I do not argue unless I know that I am right, or am sufficiently certain that I cannot be proven wrong. If you attempt to counter this post with anything less than a representation of your initial issues with the forum in a clear and addressable fashion, I won’t waste any more time with you. Call it elitist, call it egotistical; I’m not fond of children.

[Fate Flyer]

I would say more here, but others have already covered everything and far better than I could (especially at this time of the morning).

Basically, what it essentially boils down to is that I created this place to serve as one of the very, very few places on the internet for people who are actually serious about their writing and would all like to congregate together in order to join in role-plays that have some standards. There are literally thousands of mediocre to poor role-playing boards on the net, and none of them receive any crap for their writing standards. Why on earth should one single place receive a poor judgement because we're actually trying to be one of the decent few?

This place is not for all role-players, and I mean that not in the sense that it's not for all those that can't write well, but rather that it's not for all those that just aren't into writing and taking writing seriously. It's not everyone's thing. I understand that, and that's why I don't expect everyone who role-plays to instantly want to join here. For that purpose, in addition, I feel it is more constructive for us to invite people who we think would enjoy it here.

I understand if some people have these negative initial thoughts for one reason or another. If you can't get past the front door though and actually learn for yourself without resorting to accusations (without even questioning anything, thus learning anything), then it's no one's fault but your own for having and keeping your feelings towards a place.

We really don't want to bite anyone's heads of here. I'd like to think that we're accepting of all people that feel FOG would be a good place for them. So long as a person agrees to our overall rules, then they are more than welcome to be a part of the community. By no means are we closed to anyone here. That having been said, there's no reason anyone should feel threatened here and as if we are elitists, as clearly we do not have a closed-door policy.



EDIT: Following the advice of onenitedrive, I have decided to lock this thread. This is no longer an introduction and is now an argument. If anyone ever has any question that they need answering, you are encouraged to PM me or any of the other moderators.

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