Length Requirement

[Kesteven]

I can see why short, uninformative IC responses might be frowned upon, but I'm not sure about the minimum length restriction. Often in an exchange a single character might only have something small to add - perhaps a line of dialogue or even just a brief gesture or thought - before the focus returns to the other characters.
There are two problems I see with an inflexible minimum; firstly, it encourages spotlight monologuing, where each poster ends up either going into unnecessary depth describing the actions their character takes, or taking unnecessary action to pad out the post. This can lead to a format more like some kind of opera or musical than a book. The net effect is to make some posts waffling and unappealing to read, and ideally you want every player to look forward to and carefully read every post. Basically what I'm saying is that in certain contexts, a short post can be more appropriate and hence better than a long one.
The second problem is that if a poster can only think of something brief to add, they might not post at all, which for me is much worse than posting something short.

I'm not complaining as such, but these are my feelings about it and I'd like to know what you think. I'd also like to know if it's considered acceptable to circumvent the length requirement by mutual consent within a thread.

[Fate Flyer]

I can see where you're coming from, Kesteven.

The length requirement was initiated to propel us as writers forward into more in-depth posts, rather than just one-liners or posts that are just one-paragraph long, as seen on countless other role-playing boards. The message board that we are affiliated with (Night Dreams) has a 4-paragraph minimum requirement, which is still one paragraph more than what we require for the Casual Role-Plays.

I know there are always exceptions when it comes to writing. You can say that a skilled writer could write a better story in one paragraph than someone else could in six paragraphs. The rules are just there to hopefully fuel the story more and give it a bit more of a description. No one wants to just read dialogue in a role-play, after all (which is something else all to common on many other RP sites, I've noticed).

I'll speak with onenitedrive and get his opinion about this as well though.

What does everyone else think?

[Guest]

Well honestly, it is hard to kick out 4 paragraphs for a onexone and even advanced RPs at times.

Trying to push out more than 2 paragraphs when doing just dialogue can prove to be difficult unless you're playing 2+ characters. [/knowsthisfromexperience]

I'm thinking that the limits are okay...but I'll admit I've been lax when its come to post length in my RPs and even in others I've read. I know its hard sometimes to make 4 paragraphs without rambling.
>.<

And that was rambling as well.
Anywho, I hope you see my point.
sometimes its hard to get out the limit we have, but I know we have the limits for a reason.

[Loki]

I personally like the post requirement. Once I get started it really doesn't matter since I am typically well past that by the time I finish. Sure there can be some instances where one or two paragraphs would be more than enough to convey the message; those can slide by if it is deemed adequate and thorough enough. To get rid of the post limit all together is just a bad idea, there needs to be some sort of drive to give the RP depth and the best way to do that is by encouraging lengthy posts.

It seems to me that the longer the post in a story, the more you can react to or build on. To say that you can only come up with a few sentences when responding to a 6-7 paragraph post just shows that you aren't really trying hard enough. Even if it is just filler by adding personal thoughts, emotions, actions or adding effects of the environment such as wind, sun, shade, etc. Although it may not advance the plot, it will undoubtedly bring character and depth to the RP.

[Fate Flyer]

I think that's actually something onenitedrive was saying to me once too, Loki -- that if everyone is making short posts, than no one ever has much to respond to, and therefore all the subsequent posts will be short and boring dialogue, most likely.

I still am in agreeance with Loki, as of right now, about how the longer something is, the more you can add personal thoughts and actions and emotions, along with a better description of everything. It just really helps to develop not only the story, but the characters in it, and the characters are the main things in role-plays.

[Renji]

I think that's actually something onenitedrive was saying to me once too, Loki -- that if everyone is making short posts, than no one ever has much to respond to, and therefore all the subsequent posts will be short and boring dialogue, most likely.

I still am in agreeance with Loki, as of right now, about how the longer something is, the more you can add personal thoughts and actions and emotions, along with a better description of everything. It just really helps to develop not only the story, but the characters in it, and the characters are the main things in role-plays.

It is all well and good getting people to write massive posts. But what if the quality is crap? I could write 2 paragraphs that move plot and character development on leaps and bounds, but I would be viewed as a worse writer, here, because I haven't written what could be 8 paragraphs of complete grade A horse shite (excuse the language). I do write long posts (the longest being 6 A4 pages which took me the best part of half a week to write and perfect.) But some times when there isn't anything really to do, like in times when the plot doesn't move along and characters are developed nearly to the point where they go backwards (it happens) shorter posts are better as they let people move the plot along faster.

Thats just my view anyway.

Also for reference: Agreeance isn't a word.

[Fate Flyer]

I understand that. However, we are FOG, are we not? If you are a below average writer who will be dishing out posts of that nature, then you should not be here to begin with.

Agreeance is a word - I have spell check automatically on on my Mac, and it doesn't underline it in red. Here it is on Dictionary.com: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agreeance

[Guest]

o__o
Let's be nice now...

Please....

[Renji]

I understand that. However, we are FOG, are we not? If you are a below average writer who will be dishing out posts of that nature, then you should not be here to begin with.

Agreeance is a word - I have spell check automatically on on my Mac, and it doesn't underline it in red. Here it is on Dictionary.com: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agreeance

Firstly I hope that wasn't a slight on my writing abilities. As I never said it should be a constant thing, more a time filler between cannon events in a roleplay.

Secondly, Linux has a built in spell checker, and in English(England) Agreeance isn't a word.

[Aesalon]

I agree with Renji on the quality issue - there is nothing worse than having to read something that is obviously written to acheive a quota. I still think that 4 paragraphs is a good guideline for RP writing, but there are times where a short post is appropriate or even preferable.

Would it work to rewrite the rule to be against the abuse of 'short posting'? State that a player who consistantly shortposts will be found in violation, but keep the 4 paragraph guideline in the rules as well.

[Fluff]

Length requirement? About five inches at the very least, thanks.

[Kesteven]

I agree with Aesalon - while I'm in favour of longer posting in general, I think the specifics are best settled between the GM and the player, or on a case-by-case basis. A guideline post length, with occasional reminders to individuals who consistently write posts which you think are too short, should be enough to maintain standards within the forum.

[Fate Flyer]

Of course I was not speaking about you, Renji. I was merely stating that those people who are, indeed, below our standards would do well to join a different role-playing site (any other role-playing site, really).

I suppose I heard someone using the word somewhere, on a TV show or in a video game... I'm not sure. I'm sorry that it caused confusion, and I will simply use the word 'agreement' in the future.

Tony/onenitedrive is home now (though on the phone with his grandfather), so I will consult him about it and get his opinions as well soon.

[Kathryn Lacey]

I know I’m just reiterating some points that have already been covered by others, but I really want to bring my full opinion to light. I apologize if I offend anyone, as I am not referring to anyone here, only those I have encountered in the past, but most of you know I have no tact, anyway, so I apologize again if you feel offended.

In all honesty, the size requirement is really small in my opinion. The only times I ever have to post below it is if the person to whom I’m responding posts below it, and that has only ever been on other sites. I hate it when people post very little because it gives me nothing to which to respond.

I believe the requirement is necessary. I would have to try really hard and edit my writing numerous times in order to only pump out two paragraphs. I always aspire to post at least five paragraphs, and that really isn’t a difficult achievement for me, personally, unless the people with whom I play can’t give me anything.

Honestly, this board is made for people who are above the meager skills of those who have overrun the boards from which we came. In fact, I believe the a great deal of people who posted their introductions mentioned how unsatisfying playing on other boards had been because most of the people on those other boards couldn’t make posts that kept the plot moving. They were too small, too lacking. We came to this board for a change of pace. We came here because we wanted to find solace in people who could write posts that contained information we could use for our own posts.

At our level of skill, making two meager posts ((twelve sentences)) for a casual role play or four ((twenty-four sentences)) for the more advanced or one on one role plays shouldn’t be such a hassle. The reason people on other boards rarely meet that is because they don’t think of a lot that could be used in one post. Your character may speak, touch things, move around, and change their facial expressions. They think, they hear, they taste, and they smell. I mean… seriously. How can you have good character development just by posting one itty bitty paragraph? If you can’t meet the requirement, you’re just being lazy in my opinion.

I love this requirement. I haven’t encountered a role play on this board that has left me unable to think of a post to make because the posts have always been meaty enough that I can work with what’s been written. Sure, we’re not all here to write a novel, but we are here for a better, more satisfying role playing experience, and the requirements truly help us achieve that.

The majority of writers, even good ones, have difficulty conveying something meaty and satisfying to chew ((with our brains)) in a few sentences, so I really don’t think that there is any incentive to get rid of the requirement. I’m sick of having to be an elitist on other boards. I’m an equal here, and I’m terrified that if the requirements were abolished, I would have to uphold my elitist status once more.

I also think the requirements are a sure-fire way to frighten off those who cower at the thought of a post with more than six sentences. The requirements protect this board from those who overrun our past boards from which we fled.

I don’t think there should even been a requirement about not abusing short posts because I honestly think people would be like, “Okay… It’s just going to be a short post just this once.” :: posts :: “Oh… They maid a short post, and I can’t think of anything more to post, so I’ll just do it now. It’s not going to become a habit or anything.” The problem is, that after many series of short posts, people find it far too difficult to break away from that habit, and- guess what!- they end up abusing it. That’s how awesome forums turn to shit.

The same exact thing happens on a case-by-case basis. What happens is people agree short posts are fine, so they only post short posts no matter what their intentions. Then, they grow so accustomed to them, that they always make role plays that allow short posts, and they rarely return to way they were. I had this problem once ((so I am a first-hand witness, not a second-hand as usual)), but I defeated it thanks to Misery’s help with increasing my drive to meet his abilities.

I look forward to hearing about others’ opinions on the subject.


Fluffy, you’re in the wrong thread. Please, return to the Flirtation Thread or the What’s Your Sexual Preference Thread immediately before I set Iggy after you… Where did she go anyway? >.>;;

[Fluff]

My personal (serious) input: Eternity's is just long enough for me!

I don't pay attention to the length requirement. Not ever. If I felt it was appropriate for me to make a post shorter than 4 paragraphs (in an advanced/1v1 thread), then I'd do it. On occasion, I'll have something like an 10-sentence paragraph followed by a 4-sentence paragraph followed by another 10-sentence-er, or the same arrangement without the vestigial middle bit. The overall length is adequate, although it isn't sticking to the rules in the strictest sense. Of course, I've never been spoken to regarding my post length. I don't know that I've ever had a post shorter than the 12 sentences required for casual, and it's not terribly common for my posts to run below the 24 for Adv./1v1.

Come to think of it, I can think of quite a few posts of mine in the 1v1 forum that have only been 3 paragraphs. Have they been long enough? Yes, quite obviously so, or I wouldn't have made them. Do they work in the RP? Do they match my partner's posts? Yes, and yes. I'm completely confident that the quality of my posts will remain the same with or without the requirements.

Now, personally, I don't use the casual/advanced forums for post length purposes. In a casual RP, I expect it to read more like a forum RP: more character-to-character interaction, more fine-tuning of said interactions by the players, and a faster pace in general. In an advanced RP, I expect it to read almost like a book written by multiple authors, each writing a page or two in turn. I expect each post to move the story forward, not just the GM's, I expect each post to expand the world being made, not just the GM's, and I expect each post to reveal a little bit more about the character, be it through actions, internal monologue, flashbacks, dialogue, or any combination of those four and more. Quite frankly, if the post length for each section was the same, I would still use them the same way that I do now.

As regards to this topic in particular: I don't think Fate's last post was long enough to fully develop her character The rules are fine if you enforce them lightly. If you wanted to be nice and resolve this so everyone was happy, you might edit them to say that the average post length had to be so long. I do indeed go below the post minimum from time to time, and will probably continue to do so, at least in the 1v1 forum. (By the way, it's silly to expect a 1v1 to follow the length of an advanced RP. Change it to casual length!) If you start strictly enforcing the rules, then, well, I don't know that my opinion will be very important any more, because I'll probably have to stop posting in the RPs at all.

[Eternity]

I actually like the minimum. Because first off, it wards away writers who initially know that they cannot meet the standard. And I'm not saying I'm not all for new people on FOG, but it's just that I strongly dislike the overflow of one-line writers and unimaginative people.

BUT I do see what you mean.

I too find myself in places where I cannot push out a magical and wondrous four paragraphs. Sometimes I can only manage two or three, especially during dialogue or some other form of small passing time.

But as I said... I like it because it keeps the serious air about this community. If it weren't there, I do believe this site would be in... poorer... condition, and with not as many personally admirable writers...

Perhaps it would be good to remove the length requirement, but to instead just state that this is a very serious community that writes at an advanced level. That literacy and descriptive creativity is highly prized here.


EDIT: This isn't long enough! NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[Fluff]

[T]his is a very serious community...

lol

[Eternity]

FAIL FLUFFY.
For that three lettered disgrace of laughter, at a MOD, I shall kicketh thine butt in reality, as a warning of what I can do to you over the interweb... Mwahahha...

[Aesalon]

My one argument here is that the 4 paragraph rule assumes that a writer cannot acheive quality without mass.


If IC rule #3 (Quality) is enforced then rule #1 (Length Requirement) should not be an issue. (Meaning that the occasional shortposts will be of a level of quality writing that it makes the length of the post irrelevant.) I have always felt that the success of this RP society hinged on rule #3.

I don't feel that the 'slippery slope' of short posts will be an issue as long as the majority body of FOG is comprised of writers who have a pride in the RPs that we put our time and effort into.

That was a little disjointed as I was cooking while typing (Not easy) but I think that you understand what I'm trying to say.

[Fate Flyer]

I have to say that I fully agree with everything that Kathryn had stated.

The reason this board was created in the first place was to create a sort of haven for those of us who seriously enjoy role-playing and writing. I was tired, frankly, of bouncing between RP board to RP board, trying to find a place where I could better fit it. I wanted to create a place where, as Kathryn said, I would not be one of the few who enjoys detailed posts and care put into writing.

To put things into perspective:
The Avatar role-play that we currently have going has between around 40 to 11 paragraphs per post. Yeah. I hardly think asking for just 2 measly paragraphs for the Casual section and 4 for the Advanced section is much to demand. In truth, I have already altered the posting length requirements twice now from what I originally had them set at when I first created this place, moving them down to a place I thought and hoped would make people feel more comfortable. I'm rather shocked and a little disappointed, I suppose, that it's still not low enough for some people.


THIS IS WHAT I'VE DONE:
I've lowered the sentences for each paragraph down from 6 to 5. I also made the length requirement for the One On One role-playing the same as it is for Casual.

That is all I am willing to do. I just would not feel comfortable or happy with myself if I lowered our requirements, I don't think, for many of the reasons that Kathryn stated.

[Kathryn Lacey]

I think that's the absolute last time you should ever have to lower the requirements. If people still feel that they can't make the requirements, maybe they would feel comfortable playing somewhere else.

I really love the people here, but I don't want this haven to turn into a nightmare.

[Guest]

I have been thinking this over and discussing the topic with Fate since I got home from work. I think that you all have made some great points. I understand the concern for quality over quantity. However, pushing people to write just for the sake of writing isn't what the rule is trying to accomplish. I have typed enough papers in my time to understand that a ridiculous requirement for writing just leads to bullshit .

Anyway, I think maybe the issue here is that we're focusing too much on the rule and picking it apart. The requirement for advanced role-plays is four paragraphs. I really don't think that's too much to ask from someone that considers them self to be an advanced writer/role-player. If you feel you need to start with something a little less demanding, try joining a casual role-play. Two paragraphs is the requirement and that really is not very much writing. Seriously, it isn't. I am not a writer and I don't think I would even have a hard time with that. Look at me ramble right now

The rule is in place to stop what everyone is afraid of from happening- Boring one liners, without any description, feeling or story. No one wants to read that. It just isn't interesting. There are tons of message boards out there that cater to that type of role-playing. The World of Warcraft RP board is a perfect example. This message board is for people that enjoy writing. We're not here to bully anyone or ask anyone to bullshit their writing to meet a requirement. Just make sure you're enjoying what you do. If you do that, I think you'll find yourself in the situation that many members here seem to find themselves in. They start to write and before they know it, they have written 6, 8 or even more paragraphs.

---

Also, maybe take a minute to examine the structure of your paragraphs. Maybe they can be broken down. Remember a paragraph, from what I was always told is usually at least 5 sentences (that is also our requirement for a paragraph). If you have 9 or 10 sentences in that one paragraph, maybe try and make 2 paragraphs out of it. Another thing to remember is, as long as you meet the requirement, you can type as many lines of dialogue or "one liners" as you want to respond to things. Give the people that are reading and replying a scene to work with. Give them some description, make it interesting. If you do that, you'll probably be meeting the requirements before you know it. If not, come join me and we can write some html or css

[Kathryn Lacey]

Well said, Tony.

Also, I loved your ending statement. It made me giggle.

Anyway, don't forget guys, that it says in the rules that you don't have to make the requirement via paragraphs. You can meet it via number of sentences. Also, I agree that no one is bullying anyone. It's a guideline by which we're expected to follow, but no one is saying, "You're seriously banned if you slip up occasionally."

[Dio the Awesome]

The reason this board was created in the first place was to create a sort of haven for those of us who seriously enjoy role-playing and writing. I was tired, frankly, of bouncing between RP board to RP board, trying to find a place where I could better fit it. I wanted to create a place where, as Kathryn said, I would not be one of the few who enjoys detailed posts and care put into writing.

THIS.

I'm a little saddened at the reduction in the post limit. (Though I can understand the reason for it in 1v1, because there is a lot more room for character interaction).

I have not been here for very long. But the reason I joined this place, was only for the rules. To me, the rules never said, "Bullshit your way through 2 or 6 paragraphs." The rules said, "This place is for people who are experienced, and understand the basics of writing." Really, that's what it is. The basic foundation of writing. Do you remember going to school? Remember grade 5. How many sentences did you need in a paragraph for writing class. 5 sentences, 12 words in each paragraph. And the teachers made sure we did that. I think that made me a better writer. I wrote a 60 page epic in grade school. It sucks now, but at least it had substance.

Since I've joined, my writing skills have improved. Just look at Footsteps of Ghosts in Caligo. I think there we've has at least 7-12 paragraphs per post. The rules are there so this doesn't turn into every other board, where people make two posts, each threes sentences long, and then quit.

I had more to say, but I forgot it. I want the rules in place. I'll cry if they leave.

[Fate Flyer]

Thanks, Diodri. I'm happy to see that there are people that appreciate and understand the rules. The rules aren't meant to strike down people or be some intimidating authoritarian thing. They are there to help separate us from every other board, and really, at the requirements we have set right now, we really could be closer to those other places than I would like.

I think, just to get a rough perspective on what everyone things, I am going to create a poll about this and see where people stand. I definitely will not be lowering the standards from where they are now, even if people still believe they should be lowered further, and I may not even change anything after seeing what people think, but I'd still at least like to get an idea as to what most think here.

[Aesalon]

Does anyone realize that we just had a site policy discussion without any flaming, pouting, ALL CAPS or anyone threatening to quit? All while only derailing the topic slightly once or twice.

Fate: don't be disappointed, this entire conversation happened because you guys have built something that we all actually care about - we may disagree about what is the best policy, that is going to happen when you pool a bunch of intelligent, creative people together.


...okay, I have officially kissed up to everyone sufficiently now...
Back to RPs!!!

[Guest]

It's belated, but I don't care about requirements so long as the people are putting in a similar amount of effort in their posting. And, as far as I know, this hasn't been an issue yet.

I think we all realize that the requirements are going to be a rule of thumb in practice, and shouldn't sweat the chapter and verse unless the site is about to bring in some sort of enforcement mechanism, which I think would be a mistake.

Just the posting of the requirements sets out what this board is about, where it stands on the issue and what kind of posting it wants to see. People aren't going to go in, post one paragraph posts and try to force the issue in an environment that's hostile when they can just go elsewhere. I mean, unlike some boards, this isn't really an outlet for people that want to sausage-fight with each other.

"If it ain't broken, don't fix it." If some people in here are getting worried about the posting regs, I think the question to ask is, "are they worrying themselves or is there an actual cause for worry?"

In the end, the standards here seem to be pretty self-enforcing, and I would argue for continuing with that. We're our own harshest critics, after all.

[Kesteven]

Yeah, admittedly my concern was more over principle than anything else, I just prefer imprecise rules enforced absolutely to absolute rules enforced imprecisely. I remain unconvinced that good writing in a cooperative setting has to be long writing, and it still seems somewhat patronizing to have an exact limit, but the discussion did bring some things to light for me and I accept much of the rationale behind the rule. For my part, I'll take pains to try and put substantial content into every post, and according to what's been said that should put me over the limit anyway.

[Fate Flyer]

I really appreciate it, you guys, and I'm pleased that you, Kesteven, can at least see some of our points from our perspective as well. Like I said earlier, I can understand where you're coming from to some degree also. I just hope that this conclusion will be helpful enough all around.

[Fluff]

Honestly, I've not seen any instances here where the posts come anywhere close to the limit except in the 1v1 forum, and those totally don't count. We're just too awesome.

[Sponsored content]