Flamboyant Behavior

[The Ghost Writer]

I've watched in the background as the FoG community has developed over time and thrives into the mature bunch that you all are. I've also come to trust this board to be able to sustain an academic conversation of the type that would normally instigate flame wars and produce armies of trolls at other places. Therefore, I present to you an opportunity to show me (and others) just how mature this community is and our that the term "eliterate" can be called out own.

Flamboyant Behavior
An in-depth discussion of one of today's most criticized mannerisms.

---

I chose to open a discussion about this particular subject up on FoG because it's something that has been on my mind for quite a long time. I've read all of the statistics that my feeble human mind can bare to understand, and I've listened to the politically-driven opinions of not just the media bulldogs, but as well as their mindless audiences. Now I ask you, on a personal level - however, still on a level that demands a sense of maturity for the sake of learning and multicultural understanding - what you would think and say if you were me, or any other person in the following scenario. Keep in mind that what you are about to read actually happened, and the persons are individual human beings. I ask not that you judge them. Offer how you would respond to the conversations in the story.

Many of you know that I'm currently on a deployment overseas, so I have the opportunity to meet with a bunch of people from an entirely different background compared to the U.S. and the U.K. I've traveled from the central part of the States, to Ireland, to East Asia, and now to what the international community recognizes as the "third world". When traveling to such a location while wearing a uniform it is of the utmost importance to have an open mind and positive attitude when meeting and greeting the locals, especially when you are actively assisting in a Counter-Insurgency operation ("New Dawn"). I was prepared to meet all sorts of interesting individuals; from Jordanians, to Iraqis, and from Afghans to Kuwaitis. But it seems that I failed to prepare for the least expected surprise of all, witnessing the mannerisms of a fellow American.

Now I know what you're thinking after reading that statement and the title, but that's not the mannerism I was surprised with. What stunned me was someone's reaction to it. I've seen the outcries and tea parties at political rallies against the gay communities on television, and read about it in the news articles. I've seen insane YouTube videos, and read ranting blog posts. I'm not the least bit surprised at the mannerism in and of itself, but that it came from someone wearing a uniform, and who was supposed to be carrying a professional attitude.

While overseas, being a young Airman, I have the opportunity to complete some career advancement training so I can continue to progress in my rank and start reaping the benefits of a "free" education (I seriously thank you, American tax payers! ). I had schedule to take a final exam to complete my advancement training, but was disappointed when a call came in for a short-notice mission. Duty comes first, and I wasn't really upset about it, so I grabbed my gear and weapons and headed out for the day. I explained to this certain person that the mission was going to interrupt my scheduled testing time and he gladly picked up a phone and called into the learning resource center to have the test rescheduled. When hung up and got back to me, he joking said, "You know that queer that works at the LRC? I accidentally said 'ma'am' to him over the phone. Haha!"

I smiled back, not wanting to get involved in a conversation about how I actually disapproved of such a joking manner, and decided to carry on with the mission. Later though, that one moment had been on my mind all night, causing me to get little rest. I went down to the LRC and said a few words to the guy; mostly being friendly and just saying "Hi". I struck up a quick and random conversation with him, trying to figure just why a seemingly close-minded chunk of mainstream society rejects the homosexual (and bisexual) community. I understand, there are elements involving sexual intercourse, and especially marriage, of individuals of the same sex that upset many; but why, in particular, is it the flamboyant nature of many of them that sets people on either a facetious rant, or a flaming rampage?

The young man at the LRC did, indeed, "talk like a girl". However, I found absolutely nothing wrong with this. I also found no indicator that he was gay or bi, and that my fellow Airman's use of the word "queer" was grotesquely unwarranted. Some males are simply "sweethearts" or "gentle", resorting to being flamboyant - or "feminine" (though now I'm beginning to question if that word is even politically correct for such males) - because it breaks down many defensive barriers when communicating with women as a male (especially in the dog-eat-dog world of the military, where males were - and, sadly, still somewhat are - seen by a majority as the dominant gender role).

To conclude my perception of the events that happened, allow me to end by explaining that I was merely appalled by my comrades remarks because of the lack of professionalism expressed. This individual has his own background that I'm still scoping out, and, I'm sure, somewhere in there is a reason for why he resorted to a sarcastic comment after the phone call. I do not judge him, nor do I hold any kind of resentment towards him. I consider this man to be a good friend and will gladly rely on him any day of the week to pull my arse out of a burning Humvee hit with an IED.

Now onto the discussion... I would love to hear your views and opinions on this. How would you have reacted to the comment? What are you opinions of gender roles in today's society (i.e. flamboyancy with males, or the "Tom Boy" attitude for females)? Keep in mind, however, that this is not a discussion solely about gays rights, marriage, sex, or religious tolerance. While such elements are welcome to be incorporated as to reference a point of view, I ask that the discussion remain around the scenario and your opinions of it. If the topic begins to shift into another direction, I ask that you open up a different thread. But I don't think we'll have any problems.

[Gadreille]

It is hard to put myself in your position, for I am not in the military and I understand that there might be certain details which make your situation different from a civilian's. For example, I don't know the rank of yourself, the person who said the offending comment, or the person being offended. That could change your reaction to the situation, or anyone's for that matter.

Also, I live in a conservative town of a liberal state. Overall, supporting gay rights isn't popular, but doesn't get you tarred and feathered either.

Anyway, ignoring those circumstances that may change the situation, my reaction would probably have been sarcastic. "Wow, you need to get your ears checked", "Yea, I've almost called you ma'am before," or something along those lines. Again, these comments are coming from a 100 pound girl in a civilian world, so usually comments such as these dissolve into laughter, without necessarily supporting the offense that the person made but not necessarily getting into a political battle over it.

My opinion of gender roles in today's society...I could go on and on and on about that. I have a very open perspective and look forward to the breaking down of gender barriers, especially as I am on what is still considered the "Losing Side". As for the "flamboyant" or "tomboy" attitude, I was raised as a boy and didn't really fall into the female mindset until the end of high school, and I tend to have both female and male qualities in terms of personality. I would not demand nor expect someone to act how society deems "normal". To me, it is the same as asking a person to not speak with an accent if they are from a foreign country. All you are asking for them to do is hide what they are on the inside, and that does nothing to fix the problem of intolerance. It only increases the anger of those being subdued.

I hope I stayed true to what you wanted this thread to be about, please let me know if I misunderstood something or got off topic.

[Tartra]

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're asking. If your friends are laughing about the way this guy acts and you're uncomfortable with it, the issue isn't him, it's you. Tell him to knock it off, but don't spend so much time analyzing what was likely only an off-colour joke he was telling you about, thinking you'd find it funny. If you didn't, and because you explained that you don't harbour any ill feelings against him (I'm finding it hard to believe you aren't judging him), then tell him it's not cool or else just nod your head and express your disinterest. The guy being made fun of doesn't factor into this, and if he truly is that flamboyant, he's obviously secure enough in his image to not care about this snide humour, or has at least dealt with it before. After all, you never said how he responded.

If you're uncomfortable but your friend is otherwise a nice guy, tell him to knock it off and leave it at that.

[Gadreille]

The guy being made fun of doesn't factor into this, and if he truly is that flamboyant, he's obviously secure enough in his image to not care about this snide humour, or has at least dealt with it before.

Good point.

[The Ghost Writer]

No, Ryona, you understood perfectly and I thank you for being considerate of the topic.

The person's rank was one stripe above me, but when it comes to the presentation of a professional attitude, everyone is responsible for correcting everyone else. If my shoe laces are untucked, I expect someone lower-ranking than me to calmly address it and say "Hey, sir, you're laces out of regs." I would gladly fix the problem then and there. In my case, however, we were in the middle of a mission that required absolute focus on the security of a resource. Discussing his comment at that time would have been even more inappropriate.

Joking in return is fine, and I would actually be comfortable with that if it weren't for the circumstances, but I would also keep in mind that it was still uncalled for, uniform or not. Have I made my own sarcastic remarks in the civilian world? Absolutely; I'm guilty as charged. I'm still a young man that feels like high school was only "yesteryear". At my high school debate tournaments, my friends and I would joke all the time about DADT and gay rights, etc.; but I always stuck to my multicultural mindset in the end.

All you are asking for them to do is hide what they are on the inside, and that does nothing to fix the problem of intolerance. It only increases the anger of those being subdued.

I completely agree with that statement.

Additionally added:

I'm having a hard time understanding what you're asking.

...How would you have reacted to the comment? What are your opinions of gender roles in today's society (i.e. flamboyancy with males, or the "Tom Boy" attitude for females)?...

I apologize, I know I talked a lot there and probably watered down the point, but those are the questions this topic is more concerned with.

I understand that I probably should have told him straight up that his comment made me uncomfortable or was offensive, but as I told Ryona, the circumstances presented an obstacle of place and time. Surprisingly, I'm actually thankful for that because it gave me time to ponder the situation a little more and try to figure things out on his end. Forgive me, but studying and reading people is just one of my traits. It's who I am. It's also why I'm more excited about meeting people of different cultures than the rest of the members on my team.

[Tartra]

Now I'm really confused by what you're asking.

I answered the first part about how I would've reacted, which would've been 'Dude, not cool' and that's the end of it. With the second question, you're throwing me with your 'i.e'. Do you want an opinion on gender roles or on gender image? Or both...?

[Gadreille]

It is a two part question, kind of like "what would you have done and why?" But instead of asking "why", he's asking how you feel about gay, lesbian, or transgender acting their part. Does male femininity bother you? Does a girl dressing up like a guy bother you? Vice versa for both questions. These are just examples of what he was going for. It's kind of an abstract question. Also, for some people it might not be easy to answer. A person may want to not care how another dresses/talks/acts, but may feel uncomfortable in a situation where someone is doing so (even though they are trying to be understanding).

Does that help, Tartra?

Responding to TGW:

As you paint a clearer picture, it seems to be that it was less of a problem of what he said, and more of a problem of when he said it. In that situation, you don't really want to hear negative jokes about anything, but you did what you thought was the right thing by saying nothing. Would it change if it was racist? If it was religious intolerance? If it was your shoelaces? In the end, the only person being harmed was yourself, and you chose to take the insult and swallow it. If the offended person was present, and the joke was lowering his confidence (and in this mission, confidence was necessary of all persons), perhaps you would have felt a stronger need to defend him and attempt to end the issue. It all boils down to professionalism, and when it is needed versus when it is better to let it slide.

However, I must say that if I were a lower rank, I would have to think twice before correcting a commanding officer, even if it was just for the shoelaces...and I doubt I'm the only person in the world who feels that way.

[Tartra]

It's a little clearer. Sorry, guys, but this kind of topic is the heart of my degree, so I'm trained to ask about every boundary of the question. Force of habit.

I'm hopping onto the gender image side of the question, because I think that's what you meant (force of habit, force of habit, I know it's rude for me to be nitpicking like this!). There will always be a divide between how the genders are supposed to act. It's not a matter of social perception; it's basic science telling us that our brains function in different ways. Not every woman is going to be a flowery, nurturing invidiual, but the bulk of us come with the hormones to set us up to be a mother. Because of that, the traditional role role of 'softer and more emotional' isn't something women can shake (to be clear: we're not predisposed to it, we're just more likely cases and that's all it takes to be labelled that way). With men, there's the same thing: there's the genetic potential to be the hunter and provider. Where the flamboyancy fits in (effeminiate men, masculine women) is when one takes on the other, obviously, but it's getting harder to draw the line between someone going 'too far to the other side', like a woman being butch or just... I don't know - atheltic? Independent? There're a lot of personality traits someone can see in a person and instantly chalk up to them acting outside their usual gender, and thanks to the steps taken towards equality, the lines have never been greyer. Now if a man wants to take on a role more typically marketed towards women, he takes the risk of being a famed 'trailblazer' or '... isn't that a girl's job?' The want for every position to be unisex is there, but the actual acceptance of it isn't.

With that said (women and men will always have their roles), I have no problem with a guy acting girly or a lady acting mannish. What does upset me is when it becomes obnoxious. That's when I draw the line. Be the girl you are, whether it's on the inside or out, but don't throw it in my face because you think you have a right to act that way. Sure, you're entitled to be yourself and congrats on identifying your image and sticking to it, but if I see you strutting around in hot green shorts and giant heels, then man or woman, my mind's going to say, "... Wow." And I'm offended if they take offence to that. It's not an issue of flamboyancy for me, but arrogance, class, and modesty. Don't be a whore.

... You might have to define 'flamboyant' for me, too.

[The Ghost Writer]

The questions are there to spark discussion. You don't have answer all of them, nor do you have to answer a single question at all, in fact.

What is your degree, if you don't mind me asking?

[Gadreille]

I had a lot of gender studies getting my degree, as well!

[Tartra]

Gave my answer. I added it to my last post.

I'm in management.

Ryona, what are you taking?

[The Ghost Writer]

Responding to TGW:

As you paint a clearer picture, it seems to be that it was less of a problem of what he said, and more of a problem of when he said it. In that situation, you don't really want to hear negative jokes about anything, but you did what you thought was the right thing by saying nothing. Would it change if it was racist? If it was religious intolerance? If it was your shoelaces? In the end, the only person being harmed was yourself, and you chose to take the insult and swallow it. If the offended person was present, and the joke was lowering his confidence (and in this mission, confidence was necessary of all persons), perhaps you would have felt a stronger need to defend him and attempt to end the issue. It all boils down to professionalism, and when it is needed versus when it is better to let it slide.

However, I must say that if I were a lower rank, I would have to think twice before correcting a commanding officer, even if it was just for the shoelaces...and I doubt I'm the only person in the world who feels that way.

Just saw that edit.

Yes, if that person was present then the situation would have definitely been different; being, I would have felt more inclined to defend him and take my partner off to the for a second to explain what he said wasn't appropriate.

As far as taking it and swallowing it goes, I suppose that was also a natural response on my part. Being a cop, you have to have thick skin and just take some of the BS and jokes that come your way without argument. It sucks sometimes; but in another sense, there's also an advantage to it... like collecting all the fire you need for a witty comeback in the future.

[Gadreille]

if I see you strutting around in hot green shorts and giant heels, then man or woman, my mind's going to say, "... Wow." And I'm offended if they take offence to that. It's not an issue of flambouency for me, but arrogance, class, and modesty. Don't be a whore.

Yes! I have had to say this again and again...If you are trying to extract each other's tonsils with your tongues in front of me, be you man woman dog or ape, I will be disgusted!

I finished my degree in Anthropology, and though I worked as an archaeologist, a majority of my classes were in cultural and biological anthropology, and I don't think there was one class that didn't at least touch on gender issues (even my archaeological ones).

Blah, we are editing up the kazoo here...LOL, yea, Ghost Writer, it's hard to give a straight response when there are so many variables

[The Ghost Writer]

... You might have to define 'flamboyent' for me, too.

Hmmm.... Think of the character Roger, from the animated television series American Dad.

[Tartra]

Blah, we are editing up the kazoo here...LOL, yea, Ghost Writer, it's hard to give a straight response when there are so many variables

Ah-ha! Wasn't just me!

Sorry about that, TGW. I needed a minute to get on board with what you were saying.

[Tartra]

... You might have to define 'flamboyent' for me, too.

Hmmm.... Think of the character Roger, from the animated television series American Dad.

... Aaaaaany chance you could give a human example? Just so I get an idea of the whole package, not just the personality.

Edit: I'm asking for a human example only because, like I said, it's not the flamboyancy but the obnoxiousness that irks me and there's two types of that: from appearance and from personality. Roger's on a comedy show so he's meant to be entertaining, and taking him for what he is, he's a funny little dude. If he starts getting annoying, I'd tell him to tone it down like I would anyone else. If he refused, now he's on my nerves. If he didn't, everything would be okay. If I was being needlessly demanding (I don't think I would be, he's pretty awesome), then I'd have to settle down myself.

But Roger is an alien so he only gives me half the picture.

[The Ghost Writer]

I'll definitely do my best, but I'll need you to clarify what you mean by a human example.

Like what he said and how he said it? Kinda hard to type the pitch of a voice. He didn't say anything that a would tip a listener off to a "gay" personality, but he has a girl-ish way of speaking. Like a roller coaster pitch, or however else one might describe it.

The conversation was pretty brief; I didn't want to make anything too awkward. After all, he had a job to do, and my only valid excuse for being in front of him was to check out a few DVDs (the LRC is a library/computer lab/testing center/learning center/etc. etc.). We exchanged a relaxed greeting, I asked him what his AFSC (career title) was - I noticed he didn't have a function badge on his ABU blouse - and I also asked him how long he had been at the base. He said he had about a month and a half left over here. That was pretty much it. What I visually noticed about him was that he was sitting in the chair, upright, with legs tightly crossed at the knees. Normally, a guy would rest his foot on his knee if he was to "cross his legs", and slightly slouch in the chair; but, there was really nothing wrong about his posture.

How am I doing? Sorry if that's not what you're looking for.

[Tartra]

...but he has a girl-ish way of speaking.

I'd certainly notice the first time I hear him but I wouldn't mention it. If he's talking about actual things and not just talking to 'show it off', I'm fine with it. If he starts doing annoying laughs, however - which, again, apply to women just as well - we have problems. I guess I'm saying I'd shift my expectations to incorporate both what I expect from a man (in terms of topic) and from a woman (in terms of a topic and delivery), with emphasis on the delivery for 'Is this grating? Is this too in my face?', depending on how pronounced the lisp was and because if I can't base my perceptions around a 'stereotypically male' style of speech, my only other option is to work off a stereotypically female one and build a hybrid. And if he lisped too hard for me to understand him, that's just standard 'Please speak clearer' aggravation.

What I visually noticed about him was that he was sitting in the chair, upright, with legs tightly crossed at the knees. Normally, a guy would rest his foot on his knee if he was to "cross his legs", and slightly slouch in the chair; but, there was really nothing wrong about his posture.

I get what you mean. I probably wouldn't've noticed if I'd been simply passing by, but it'd be something I'd pick up if I was there to look at him or if I talked with him for a bit. But I don't have a problem with that, either. 'Normal' or not, it's still a proper way of sitting, as opposed to 'legs wide open', which guys do, too. And that can also be tasteless (once more, normal or not).


And yes, that was clearer. I feel like I'm giving you a direct counterpoint to everything you're saying. I just don't want to assume anything about what you mean and derail the topic.

[The Ghost Writer]

Don't feel like you're doing anything wrong or rude at all, Tartra. That's why I opened this discussion: for counterpoints and all! I just won't tolerate snobs and trolls. But I haven't seen any of that yet, so everyone's cool.

On a personal note, I'd probably have to agree with everything you've stated so far about how you would react to different scenarios. I'm fine with someone if that's honestly how they are, but if they take it to an attention-craving level then they've gone one step too far.

There was also something earlier that made me laugh:

...and thanks to the steps taken towards equality, the lines have never been greyer.

It made me laugh not out of a sarcastic, political sense, but because I had actually finished reading an article earlier about equality movements. It didn't have much reference to the gay communities pushing for equality, but more about Christianity being more "militant" nowadays; or so says Trevor Phillips, Britain's Chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

[Tartra]

I'm fine with someone if that's honestly how they are, but if they take it to an attention-craving level then they've gone one step too far.

And that's all equality is: I don't care what you act like, what you say, how you say it, how you dress... just don't be a dick.

I dare say you'd do well to invest in a political correctness thread, good sir! There's plenty to debate in that minefield.

[The Ghost Writer]

Alas, I lost that flame after joining the military.

After seeing things through the lens of my profession, politics - in a way - is a fiery hell hole. It's destructive, but ironically needed. I've had my fill. Just give me a target to shoot or a resource to protect. I'll carry out the mission and be done in time for dinner (or breakfast, if it lasts through the night; which they often do).

Oh, on a side note, since we're on the subject of politics, my team got to transport Senators McCain and Lieberman a while ago. One's a prick and the other is as cool as Fonz. I'll leave it to you to figure out who was whom.

[Kalon Ordona II]

before reading others' responses

Little to nothing of effeminate mannerisms in men disturb or upset me. I might have my own opinions about it, but the behavior itself doesn't make me sarcastic or irritated. I've never approved of calling names, either, even jocularly. Trying to honestly imagine my reaction if faced with a comment similar to the one in the scenario, I think I would probably keep my face neutral out of reflex, then probably tighten my mouth slightly as a subtle sign of disapproval. Disapproval for the reasons above, and subtle because I don't want to unnecessarily offend the person I'm speaking with if they don't share the same convictions I do. If the person noticed my reaction, I would probably by that time have a logical statement prepared to delineate my view of his comment. If he didn't notice and went on his way, I might bring it up another time.

Whereas that is what I think I would do, what I think I should do is go a step further in the first place and ask a question or offer a gentle rebuttal.

My inward opinions on the matter go a step beyond that. I mark a difference between men being sensitive and men acting like girls. I don't blame the people as much as I blame society. The concept of what makes a man has degenerated over the past few generations, until now people have either confused, indifferent, or extreme views on the subject. Some people think we ought not to even define gender by a person's sex anymore, some don't care either way and just do their own thing, and some think only macho-manly-army-redneck-berserker is what a man looks like. Men need to know that it's okay to be sensitive, and it's okay to be strong--that in fact, a man should be both. When you have men either turning themselves into either gruff jerks or ladylike fashionistas, I believe something is not right. Nobody should approve the concept of a man who only knows how to push people around, and nobody should approve the concept of a man who only knows how to be pushed around. Live, lead, and love--off the top of my head, that's what I think a real man does.

As for women... I have to admit, there is something about the active woman which strikes a chord--the warrior female who can accompany the male hero on his quest instead of waiting around at home or in the next castle. On the other hand, why does the damsel-in-distress image also feature prominently in the male heart? Could it be that, just as men ought to be both sensitive and strong, women can be both caring and capable? I say yes. However, again, I disagree with the extremes--the tomboy-tigerlady-uberindependent-wannabemale, and the oh-saaaaave-me-because-I'm-in-a-pretty-dress-and-we-can-go-to-the-mall fashiongirl. Women don't have to be loners, and they don't have to be gossipgirls.

In this world of nightclubs and party-centric workweeks and overpriced consumer goods and broken families, it's no wonder boys and girls grow up confused about what makes a man and what makes a woman. That doesn't mean we put them down over it. We just have to help promote good values and healthy lifestyles. We should love people enough to look past what we see as faults, but we should also love them enough to involve ourselves and not abandon them to the ugly masses.

Well, that's my two cents.


after reading others' respones

Okay, cool. I thought I might have something to add after reading what everyone else said, but I guess I'm pretty much good with what I have up there for now.
Good insights so far, everyone!

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