Petitioning for proper Advanced Guidelines

[Ehoron]

Alright, I was talking to Kathryn earlier about how the guidelines were made more lax because some people were complaining about them. For Casual and One-on-One, this isn't so much of an issue. What bothers me is lowering the guidelines for Advanced Roleplaying. For making this thread, I will go ahead and issue an apology to Fate for adding work for her and the staff, but this is something I feel strongly about.

Advanced Roleplaying is a type of roleplaying described in it's name; Advanced. It is meant to be roleplaying a step up from what others do. It is not something to be done lightly or with less-that-certain ideas. At it's core, Advanced Roleplaying represents that milestone that further bridges the gap between us and the famous writers that so many of us aspire to become like one day. I know I do.

Allowing the guidelines and requirements of the Advanced Roleplaying section to weaken and lessen is to affront the very thing that makes us begin roleplays in that area in the first place. It has been said that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". In this instance I vehemently disagree, and apologize to those who would think me an elitist. In this case, it is not the needs of the many, it is the wants of many; and the wants of the many are outweighed by the needs of a few.

There are things that will see compromise and change. I urge that the Advanced Roleplaying section not see that happen to it. Lessen that and one day there will be no need for it. It will simply become another area of the board to roleplay, nothing special. Nothing of note. Just sitting there, a shadow of it's former self. To me, that's insulting. Roleplaying is a growing experience as writers. If one sits idle and allows their talent's status quo remain, then one fails as a writer. Without things designed to challenge us, our preconceptions, as well as our limits, then roleplaying itself would not exist.

So, for all those who feel like I do, I ask that the guidelines and rules of the Advanced Roleplay section here at FOG be re-tightened and held fast for the sake of the current writers at this site, and the future writers who will one day come to this site with the aspirations to become great. There are people that will not feel the need to rise to meet such requirements, but that is a decision they must make and understand themselves. For those that would rise up to meet that line, I once again ask; let the Advanced Roleplay section remain what it should be, now and always. Advanced.

[Kathryn Lacey]

I know that Fate has decided never to lower the role play requirements of this board again, but I see no reason in never raising them again.

What Ehoron seemed to have forgotten to mention in his petition is that we had discussed simply returning the Advanced section's requirements to what they once were: five paragraphs or twenty-five sentences.

In all reality, the requirements for all of them never should have been lowered. I'm in two One on One's, and neither my partners nor myself have gone under five paragraphs there. However, this is to petition for the Advanced Section, and I will do just that.

One more paragraph or five more sentences really shouldn't be difficult to obtain. I make it a point to write at least five paragraphs for every post no matter if I'm role playing in the Advanced, Casual, or One on One sections or on another site completely.

I don't think it's elitist to want the best for this site, either. The people attracted to this place aren't just people who meet the minimum. There are people who go far beyond the minimum, sometimes tripling it.

There are also aspiring writers on this board or people who just want to become better players or writers for their own hobbies. I think the best way to challenge them to do the best that they can do is to make sure the Advanced section is more than just the basic.

As one who used to make two or three paragraphs minimum, I know that with a challenge, one can succeed and make it a habit to write more than five paragraphs. All it took for me was to role play with someone who can make casual posts that last for several pages in a Word file with size ten font. I aspired to write as well as him, and I know I can succeed.

Five paragraphs is my minimum wherever I am, so I know it's possible. Something else to keep in mind is that good ideas help spur better and longer writing. If you can't meet the requirement, it probably means those involved aren't creative enough to keep the role play going, or it could mean that you just don't work well enough together, in which case, it's probably best to work harder at brainstorming or forgo the role play.

The Advanced section should be a section where more thought and more care is placed into a role play, so I see nothing wrong with raising the standard to what it once was.

[Gunneh]

Guys, you might be fighting a battle over a moot point. You're petitioning for five more sentences than the current post length requirement....you know, 20 sentences or four paragraphs? The way I'm seeing it is that, if YOU think it's a little low, hold yourself to your own standard. Hell, shoot for 30 sentences or six paragraphs. Why not 35 and seven? 40 and eight, even!

I understand your thinking, but an advanced writer will rise to meet their own standards. 20 sentences is a cake walk for you two and I know because I've seen it. Kathryn suffers from a thing I like to call "wall-of-text-itis" and Ehoron is just as capable. You guys are amazing writers, just like the better part of every user on here, and I know that you guys will always be pumping out posts that make the limit seem so far away that all it is is a tiny speck of dust on the horizon.

However, IC isn't my area and neither is changing the rules. I'll be beside either decision either way ^_^

P.S. <3 Kathryn

[Kathryn Lacey]

In all honesty, you haven't seen "walls of text" unless you've read Jonathan's writing, but I see nothing wrong with that. You say it like it's a disease which gives it a negative connotation. As "serious" role players, we should aspire to so much more than the basics, and I know that many people are not going to do that if they only have a tiny amount to meet.

People are generally lazy, and I don't see anything wrong with being lazy... in the casual forum. Facts are that only raising it by five sentences/one paragraph will seem like something that those who are generally lazy can meet. What's typing up five more sentences? If they can meet that, what's to stop them from doing more?

Of course people are going to challenge themselves at their own levels as I do personally, but I think it's important to give those who don't generally aspire to do more a challenge that can be met to change their thinking patterns a bit.

If you want to stick to smaller posts, then there are always the Casual and One on One sections in which to play.

[Gunneh]

Trust me, hun, I meant nothing of the sort when it comes to your walls of text. It's one thing to just type a lot and another thing entirely to write that much and with as much detail as you put into your posts. Misery is also included in that description save for the "hun" part lol

As I said before, this isn't my battle but I'll stand by the outcome no matter which way it goes. Maybe re-upping the limit will put everyone back on their toes and we'll come out of it on top, maybe it's neither here nor there. Point is that I'm here for FOG 100%. I love this site, I love the people and I love hearing feedback from users. Remember to keep this stuff on your mind, because we're thinking of some new ideas for user interactions with staff.

[Weiss]

Alright, I'm going to take a step backwards and call up something from Gunneh's first post before I comment on this.

You're petitioning for five more sentences than the current post length requirement....you know, 20 sentences or four paragraphs? The way I'm seeing it is that, if YOU think it's a little low, hold yourself to your own standard. Hell, shoot for 30 sentences or six paragraphs. Why not 35 and seven? 40 and eight, even!

I couldn't agree more. I understand the frame of mind behind wanting to raise the bar, but I'm usually against bars from the start. I think the idea of length requirements and separate forums for Advanced and Casual Roleplaying are pointless if the only difference is the length of the post.

That said, allow me to explain why I haven't petitioned to have those things changed.

The requirement for the Advanced Roleplay section is twenty full sentences. While it is possible to write twenty complete sentences while contributing a negligible amount of detail and progression to the roleplay, it's fairly difficult. For that matter, it would be harder to accomplish that than it would be to write twenty contributory sentences. Thus, having the requirements set at twenty full sentences means that, more than likely, all posts made that meet those standards will provide enough contributory elements that anyone responding to that post will have enough information to work with to create another post with at least twenty full sentences. It's a matter of perpetuation.

Granted, we can't be certain that a post with twenty sentences will contribute enough information to provide the next respondent with ample details to craft their own post with twenty or more sentences, but it's a good general marker. More than likely, it will be enough. More than likely, it provides enough details. More than likely, twenty is a standard high enough to perpetuate a quality roleplay without being too cumbersome.

So you raise the bar by five more sentences. Now, the people who were barely meeting the requirements with twenty sentences start fudging more information that is absolutely non-contributory in order to meet the extended limit. Essentially, you've accomplished nothing. You're just forcing those people to spend another thirty seconds creating a few asinine sentences that will make their posts ever more convoluted and even less enjoyable than before.

I could understand if you were petitioning to raise the standard to, say, 1500 words per post. I could understand if you wanted to raise the standard to eight paragraphs of at least five sentences. Those are noteworthy changes that would clearly distinguish the Advanced from the Casual. Five extra sentences? Not so much. It’s a change that’s being petitioned for solely for the sake of making a change. It’s a front, with little or no merit behind its induction.

Conclusion: I’m against raising the standard by five sentences. As Gunneh said, the ones who seek a higher standard will distinguish themselves by reaching that higher standard. The ones who are content to slide over the bar can continue doing just that, so long as their minimalistic efforts do not hinder the perpetuation of the roleplays of which they are a part. I believe a requirement of twenty sentences accomplishes just that, and see no reason for such a meaningless change.

[Dio the Awesome]

I have no problem with making the requirements greater for advanced, however, I'm hesitant to put an arbitary number out there and say, "That is all you have to do."

I think there needs to be a quility standard, both in the advanced section, and perhaps even in the Caligo section. For those areas, we expect there to be... *searches for a word*

High quality writing. That's the only way I can think to describe it. If a post is made, and you read it and say, "Damn, that was the best three paragrapghs I have read in my entire life." then that meets the advanced section requirements, even though it is a shorter post.

I think that a word limit makes back and forth dialogue nearly impossible. I don't think that raising the word limit is sending the right message. I would rather there be a short message to the effect of, "This area is for members who are comfortable in their writing abilities, and have experience in roleplaying." Or something like that.

And yes, I do realize that making the level of quality being difficult to measure has its pitfalls, but I think it is worth discussing.

[Kathryn Lacey]

Weiss, You forget that that "meaningless" change has already been made. The original standard was five paragraphs/twenty-five sentences, and it was dropped to four paragraphs/twenty sentences once upon a time. I see absolutely no harm in returning it to its former setting.

Besides, if people are honestly struggling to meet the current limitation, perhaps they should try the Casual forum instead of the Advanced? This brings me to Diordri's point.

Diodri, I agree that the Advanced forum should maintain an Advanced quality of writing, too. However, I think that people would abuse the minimum if it were none existent. I think that the Advanced forum would be filled with people who see that others make short posts, so they begin to make them, too, without keeping in mind that they need to uphold a better standard of writing along with that. There are also people who "believe" they're fantastic, when they're really not.

It is rather difficult to judge amazing writing from bad writing, and everyone has different preferences and styles, so I think the best way to judge the advanced from the casual is with a writing requirement that is a bit higher than it is now.

Also, there isn't a "word" limit, it's a sentence/paragraph minimum.

[Dio the Awesome]

Well, sure it may be hard for people to look at posts and say this post is a 95, and this post is a 30, but I think everyone can tell the difference between:


He went down the stairs. He crossed the street, not looking both ways. He saw one of his friends. He didn't even say hi, he just kept walking. He stopped in a dark place in the alley. He cried.

And:

He rushed down the stairs, hardly able to contain himself. Cars honked their horns as he rushed across the busy street. The man saw on of his friends, but he just pushed past him instead. After finding an isolated spot in a dark alley, he wept.



I know that's an exageration. I haven't seen any writing as bad as example one here. However, I think this is the distintion we need when comparing Casual, with Advanced. This is where I stand.

But I do understand that taking away a paragrapgh limit my lead to laziness. But that's a reason why we should not lessen the limit, not why we should increase in. EDIT: I also think the increasing the quality of writing, will also cause people to write more anyways. It usually takes more words to make a powerful piece of writing, not less.

[Kathryn Lacey]

I am sad to say that I have actually read worse writing than your "bad example" right here on FoG.

I don't see why good writing can increase the size of posts while increasing the size of posts can't lead to better writing. I know that after feeling challenged by Jonathan's posts to write longer posts myself, I also ended up writing far better posts than I ever had in my life. It took me a matter of months to become drastically better after I had been role playing for six to seven years with only gradual improvements.

I think that even a slight increase in the writing requirements could help others make improvements for themselves in their writing, not just their quantities.

[Weiss]

[Sighs.] Let's see...

Kathryn pretty much highlighted the issue with putting arbitrary restrictions on post quality. If Eternity looks at a post and says, "It passes," but I look at it and say, "It's crap," we'd spend all day figuring out whether or not a single post passes the requirements for the Advanced Roleplay section. We simply can't afford to have such subjective standards. It would either lead to disputes or make one moderator's opinion completely obsolete (one being variable; currently assuming no greater than two moderators per section). So, that idea is pretty much out.

Kathryn, I realize the change was already made once, and believe me, I would have argued against making the change if I had been around at the time. The fact is, I wasn't. However, what you're arguing is basically that, if we can do something useless one way, there's no reason why we can't do something useless to counter-act the initially useless change. It doesn't make any sense to change it just because it has been changed before. It's not a significant change.

Yes, it was changed once - we can't go back and change the past - and changing it again serves no greater purpose than the things I mentioned in my previous post. Most of the people on this site write a lot more than twenty sentences per post. On the other hand, there are those that skim by, sliding over the requirement by mutilating grammar or shoving in a couple of short, snappy lines where they could have compounded multiple thoughts into a single sentence. Because those loopholes exist, another five sentences is a pointless change, be it forward or backward.

I also realize there is no word limit. It was a hypothetical change that would be worth making, not an actual suggestion.

What I'm trying to say is this: five sentences is nothing. If you want to petition for a change that will increase the quality of roleplays in the Advanced Roleplay forum, at least petition for a change that will actually force people to draw upon the very depths of their creativity. Petitioning for five sentences is, as I said, wanting to make a change for the sake of changing something. The result would be negligible.

[Fate Flyer]

(Okay, first off -- Go to bed, you lot! Sheesh, I don't know how you guys manage to stay functioning during the day.)


The original length requirements that I created were set to a standard that, I thought, would be necessary for a role-playing board that (I hoped) would be more advanced than most and that would challenge those that were not used to writing as much. To me, when I am faced with a challenge when it comes to something I love (ie. drawing, writing, video games), I want to face that challenge and meet it head-on and prove that I can overcome it. Why? I'm not competitive in the slightest, eensiest bit, so it's not because of that. I simply just want to improve on something that I enjoy that is a serious hobby of mine. This, I figured, was also the outlook everyone else had that enjoyed writing more seriously than most people you come across on the internet. Therefore, I thought that the original standard was perfect.

It was almost immediately, however, that it was met with a lot of criticism. I won't mention names, but another role-playing board that I came across in my search for places to advertise that boasted higher standards were actually one of the first to challenge and then flat out ridicule our board for having, in their opinion, such a "ridiculously high length requirement." They mocked me and FOG for our rules, and more specifically, the standards. Of course, I let them know that, obviously, FOG was not a place for everyone and that it was not created for every single person that enjoys to role-playing, but rather people that take writing seriously and may also be people that are aspiring writers that are looking to publish their own written works or may be writing majors. Of course, there are others who simply just really enjoy writing as a hobby but prefer to take that writing to a higher level than what you may come across on places like Gaia.

I didn't change the rule based on anything another board said, as clearly their opinion didn't matter unless they were members themselves of FOG. However, later on, actual FOG members did protest too, bringing up the "quality over quantity" argument, and that went on for awhile, and it went back and forth. In the end, it appeared as if more people were for changing the rules to lower the requirement, and so, as a result, I lowered it for the community. Today, obviously, there are still some of us that wish the requirement was never changed. I can completely see your point of view. However, I do feel like there is something I need to bring up.

This was already touched on, but already there have been a whole list of people here on FOG that have been unofficially/"verbally" warned about their length in their role-plays. Our RP Mods, as always, have been doing an excellent job of keeping an eye on the different RPs in each section, making sure no one's falling below our minimum requirement, and yet people are. If there are many people that are apparently struggling with it today as the rules are now, then I cringe to think how much more may have a hard time if we up the standard again. We would also probably need more Role-Play Moderators just to keep watch over it all.

This isn't to say that I think our current rules are too high by any means at all or that these people should necessarily have the rules bend in their favor, but it simply gives me a bit more perspective and makes me, as the creator of the rules, look over it all and try and see what would work best for our community and what wouldn't.

In my eyes originally, I thought that increasing the length requirement would solve a lot of issues in writing. However, as we all probably know, there will always be poor writers, no matter how much they type out, be it one paragraph or five. Like I said, I had hoped that more people, especially here, would want to aspire to be better and to keep improving and to keep growing, but another part of me just wants people to enjoy what they do here and to not feel the constant pressure of our rules bearing down on them. Who are we to say, "Your writing sucks, so please write more for me to read."? XD

The way I see it is, the problem is not the length, but rather the content that is in the writing. If there is some way to demand a certain quality out of people's writing, then let me know, but a rule that states something along the lines of, "All Advanced Role-Play posts must be of high quality," just kind of leaves it open. We would then have to somehow define what that quality is, which is impossible. One person may be fine with Person A's role-play posts, while another may think that Person A has a lot of room for improvement. It's all subjective. We can say that we want quality in our members' posts, but we can't actually define it.

I guess where this leaves me is somewhere on the fence, but more so leaning to not changing it, for not only the reasons that I touched on, but also for ones that have already been discussed. I'm definitely all for quality, as I'm sure you guys know, but I'm just a bit skeptical if we would be able to achieve that by upping our length requirement. If you want to write more, then wonderful! You most definitely should strive to do your best, I think, if this is what you enjoy doing. Our length requirements are simply there now to be our support so that people can't post one-liners and the like.


I think, rather than concentrating on the rules we currently have, if you guys would like to see more quality posts here, perhaps we could discuss arrangements for helping one another improve? Just because this is more of an advanced role-playing board doesn't mean we can't have a section for help and development. Even professional writers have room to improve. I'm not really sure if something like this would work or not, as I wonder if the people that really need to improve more would take the time to come into a help board and ask for assistance and seek help from others, but who knows.

Are you guys experiencing issues with many people here in their quality in your role-plays? I just wanted to know if many of you are having problems with people here and if that was why you wanted to see some sort of requirement change. If you just wanted to up the standard just for the sake of upping it though, I can understand that too, but if there are people that are really struggling with their writing, perhaps we could hire on a small team of staff members to be like mentors or helpers or something similar to, firstly, gently inform these people that their quality could improve, and then offer them personal help. I think that might be a more aggressive way of facing problems rather than a passive-aggressive way of having a rule in the background.

[Digital Muse]

Having been an Admin on a RP site for a while, I'd like to make a suggestion to help with the Mod work load. Rather than counting paragraphs and sentences on every post (which is tedious in the extreme and as mentioned, doesn't speak at all to quality), place some responsibility on the ops of the RPs to help posters that aren't quite meeting the standards they'd intended for their RP.

Those running a RP can post standards they expect over and above the basic post count. And they can open dialog with any poster via PMs to help them improve their writing or making true contributions to the RPs progression.

As Weiss mentioned, the quality of posts are subjective and Mods shouldn't have to argue over what is or is not acceptable. It is up to the Op and others involved in the RP to challenge themselves and help one another improve. This is a community not a competition, walls of text are not necessarily good reading. The limits set are minimums, but it is up to the poster to demand more of himself.

[Fate Flyer]

That's a really fantastic idea, Muse. If the starter of a role-play wants to increase the standards for their RP for all those joining in, then they should have that ability. So long as they are not lowering the standards below what is mentioned in the rules, then there is nothing wrong with that.

If that someone is also to keep watch over their RP and make so no one is falling below the requirement, that would also alleviate a lot of work for our RP Mods.

[Guest]

The Advanced Role-playing section should not be about quality or quantity control from the role-playing host or the IC moderators. It should not be about word count or quality from any outside perspective. When I first came here, I saw that there were rules for how to post in the advanced section. Knowing I could surpass those rules, I didn't really pay much attention to it and I didn't really notice when the requirements were changed (if I was even here then, I think I was). Writing in the Advanced Section, for me, is more about pushing myself to write better than I have before. Its not about writing a certain number of words, or having a flowery paragraph that adds nothing to the story. I do my best to make the characters I'm controlling feel alive, to make the world I'm playing in feel real, and to help the people I'm playing with interact with my character(s) and write great posts of their own.

I don't feel like I've done much with a 2,000 word post that doesn't get the story anywhere or add anything to my character. I try not to start every post by recapping what everyone else said in there previous posts. I try not to end a post or fill one with pointless thoughts on the situation if they don't flesh out who the character is. And that brings up the biggest problem with having a word or length requirement:

Too many people, Ryona and I included, who are normally pretty good writers, will throw out a crappy post that even we are disappointed with simply because we had to struggle to meet the length requirement. Sometimes there will be a point in a story where there is simply not a lot to write about. Perhaps the characters will be in the middle of a group dialogue or a battle scene and they can't write too much without becoming the center of the story and stealing the action from everyone else, or controlling their character to some degree. In those situations, it is better to post something small, with quality and that helps the story move along and perhaps helps the next post by inspiring him with great ideas from your own post. Why waste 5 paragraphs or more to state a simple thought between two other posters? It will, most certainly, not turn out as enjoyable as a small one or two paragraph post that works as an awesome transition between the poster before and after you.

So, in case I didn't state my case clear enough, in my opinion raising the bar, or even having a bar, for the writing length requirement is really unnecessary. The moderators will know when someone isn't trying their very best in the Advanced Section if they are keeping up with the role-plays. Some people write short, some people write long, but in the end it is about trying your hardest.

[Guest]

First off, I must applaud you, Fate, for not falling into that "peer-pressure" trap that the other community was trying to get you to trigger. I also may have a pretty good idea for who that was, and even the aliases of users involved with that community. *arms a nuclear warhead and taps in coordinates*

Second, in the History of Roleplaying Communities, 2nd Edition (don't look for it, it doesn't exist), communities often fall to this very debate. The best way to handle such a situation, believe it or not, is for the staff to merely listen, note, and encourage - they should never take action. Here is the reasoning behind this:

The author of a roleplay is endowed with the honor of leading their players from the bottom of plot triangle to the climax, to the resolution. Or, if the roleplay is, perhaps, continous then they may continue with multiple climaxes and never really have a resolution. Not only are they endowed with that honor (some would say "responsibility") they also have control of the "Rhetorical Situation", which can be broken down into the pnumonic PAPEL¹.

What the hell am I talking about, and what does this have to do with the debate at hand? Simple, if you push aside the reference to Aristitiean philosophy. You now have the author as a "god" of sorts. They have total power of their roleplay, though most will normally keep those aces up their sleeve and not reveal them unless they are required to make a divine intervention and godmode their roleplay back on track. If they are given these powers then they are given the very right to govern their roleplay is the manner described by Muse.

Those running a RP can post standards they expect over and above the basic post count. And they can open dialog with any poster via PMs to help them improve their writing or making true contributions to the RPs progression.

Since the authors of FOG have retained this power, they only need to be reminded. This is why I make the argument that community leaders should "encourage", not act.

This may seem like "taking the easy way out", or being "passive", but it actually is not so. When leaders encourage, and do not enforce or do not stand idle, they cause a spark. One sparks turns into a light and that light turns into a beacon. Attention is turned towards the beacon; and there, guidance is attained.

And this is where Buddha comes back from the dead and says we should all be one with the way, right? Haha! No....

The whole beacon and guidance metaphore may be derived from Fate's suggestion of perserving yourselves as mentors. A beacon does move from one place to another, forcing itself upon others. It merely remains where it is, extending its light as an invitation.²

As authors, you still have the individual freedom of carrying forth your roleplay as you see fit. Standards may be created according to your personal taste. Yes, your personal tastes must still remain "in harmony" with rules already set forth by the community staff, but these are in place to ensure the players and authors alike do not fall into a state of anarchy or "state of nature"³. This brings me to my closing.

Just as a wise man once imlored the idea that governing body should restrain itself to protect its citizens ⁴, I remain as an advocate of the opposition and say that no action should be taken. Furthermore, I myself, shall implore my belief that the authors of roleplays should act as mentors to their players and help them improve and strive to succeed, whatever the goals may be.

------

<sub>1. PAPEL: As derived from the "rhetorical situation", means Purpose, Audience, Pathos, Ethos, Logos - inspired by Aristotle's "Kairos".

2. See also, Plato's allegory, The Cave.

3. More Plato mumbo-jumbo. >.<

4. Thomas Jefferson. "...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."</sub>

[Dio the Awesome]

*Makes King Hakanian pose.*

Hmmmmm....


The points made by all those involved have moved me, especially the post by Fate. They have moved me so, that I propose something to tie in with the Advanced Section, that I would be willing to try to head up.

A weekly workshop about writing and roleplay. Once a week we will visit a theme, such as dialogue, or plot, or even something as basic as grammar. One or several members would discuss their uses, and how to use them effectively. That way members who are struggling in certain areas can read these weekly discussions. (I considered them being guides, but halfway through writing this post I realized that everyone approaches convention in different ways, and having multiple views on the same issue would help writiers frind their own style).

Let we know what you think of what I have dubbed.... THE WEEKLY WRITER WORKSHOP! Or WWW!


Onto the writing limits.

I agree that the author of an RP should be able to expect some sort of a standard when writing. I know what it's like to have a roleplay I'm really into, then one person makes a sub standard post, and it causes the story to drag. An author should be able to direct this person to someplace where they can improve their writing, so they can continue to play, and have their work increase in skill. (Hence the WWW).

That's all I have for now. I was going to say more but... My train of thougt de-railed.

[Bird of Hermes]

1. PAPEL: As derived from the "rhetorical situation", means Purpose, Audience, Pathos, Ethos, Logos - inspired by Aristotle's "Kairos".

2. See also, Plato's allegory, The Cave.

3. More Plato mumbo-jumbo. >.<

4. Thomas Jefferson. "...a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

I was going to say something, but then I saw these beautiful footnotes and just decided to read in silence and awe.

I also wish I had a spell-checker.

[Guest]

The current requirement is fine. The only thing I would request is not counting dialogue towards the requirement.

Rules and guidelines in general are suppose to be worded definitively to prevent confusion and unnecessary questions.

The RP requirements are fine. They are a lot better than those you would see on other communities. After 4 paragraphs, you think you would naturally be able to push your post a little longer after getting use to the current minimum. There really isn't any need to change what the minimum is. The problem is if the requirement is to large, people will not even bother posting. This would kill active role-plays, deter people from wanting to make role-plays, and possibly kill activity on this role-playing community all together.

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