Re: Emoria: World-Building OOC

[Guilty Carrion]

Keep in mind, Morgarath and all things regarding him are currently under re-construction and what not. For a properly accurate image of him, and all that, please PM Buzzwulf, as he's currently incharge of the Shadow Lord.

Also, you and myself shall have to chat in chat soon, to discuss things.

[Bird of Hermes]

Question: Why does Alos change form when in different Planes? I understand why he changes when in the Shadow Plane; it weakens him because of his close alignment with light. However, I don't really understand why his form would have to change when in the others.

[Kalon Ordona II]

I dunno really, it just sorta happened as I was writing it up.
I think it makes sense, though. It emphasizes the differences between planes, as well as the differences between the Light and Shadow planes, the Elemental planes, and the Material plane. It also shows that Alos isn't just a glowing humanoid. He's fundamentally connected to the world. Air is what light passes through to get to other things, you might say. To Earth, light isn't just light; plants and dirt can't see, but they do grow because of sunlight; same deal. Fire wouldn't recognize light; it's just an unimportant by product; heat is the thing, so low vibrations are the only thing that comes through.
I guess I didn't add one for Water. It'd be some combination of his Air and Earth attributes, but with the greatest emphasis on sound.
Shadow and Light are direct opposites and even more closely related, so that's why he doesn't change: his whole purpose is to oppose Shadow, basically, and vice versa.

I suppose he doesn't HAVE to change forms, if we don't want? Or we could modify the changes if anybody has better ideas--I'm open. It just seemed to work, so I went with it.

Oh, to address a possible concern:
This wouldn't necessarily indicate that other rulers of other planes would automatically change forms. It would indicate that the Shadow Lords' forms would change, but that wouldn't apply to Morgarath, since he's a Material vessel--which is probably a major reason for their doing that.

[Bird of Hermes]

I understand your reasoning now. As long as everyone else is fine with Alos, I am. Of course, like you said, other characters associated with the Planes do not have to necessarily change form when entering a different Plane than their Plane of origin and, if they do change, there is an explanation for the said change that is logical.

[Buzzwulf]

Actually, I really, really like Alos now. And I think that Kalon brought up a really interesting point; that is to say, the enslavement of Morgarath as a material vessel. I actually had something very different in mind, but I like the idea. I think I'll actually pose the question to you guys, and than write based off this: do you think Morgarath makes more sense as a patsy for lords of the dark, or as a thief of power?

My original idea was for the lords themselves to be the ultimate losers here. They didn't actually intend to cause a massive imbalance, but were really just experimenting with vessels. They found one that didn't want to give thier power back, which they really should have seen coming, and they really had nothing they could do about it at that point. The lords of shadow aren't really the bad guys in that case. They just want to be left alone. Morgarath is a power-hungry despot that want to control pretty much everything and unbalance the order of things.

Opposed to that, we have a direct power-play from a much more malicious group of dark lords. In that case, Morgarath becomes a patsy that can really only be eliminated, and there is no guarantee that another won't pop right back in his place. I actually think that this answer is a little bit darker, but I think I like it more as well.

Which of these options do you guys feel fits more with the world of Emoria? I'm pretty open to either of them.

[Guilty Carrion]

Okay, so it's nice to have something to see, but...

Alos is fundamentally more powerful than everything in the material plane. Everything. His powers are incrediably vague, leaving a lot, a LOT of wiggle room, which can lead to terrible terrible things(not saying it WILL, but potenial is potenial.) Top it off...he's immortal. We can't kill him. He'll always come back.

He can ghost, which means he goes intangiable, correct? So...our best warriors, the strongest players, can't scratch him, because he just goes "Op." Then turns solid again, and breaks your face in with his staff or a blast of heat to melt your ass. Or, he can manipulate people into just going "Oh yay, Alos!" With his ability to screw with everyone's heads. What makes him have anything related to a limit? Park him next to campfire or a bard, or anything that recharges him, and you've won the war, no problem.

Like...honestly, no offense, but what's the point? At least Morgarath can DIE. With Alos parading around for the forces of 'good', I honestly don't feel any point in trying ANYTHING. He's...well, exactly what he claims NOT to be.

He's a god, it's really not up for debate here.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but I've seen(and taken) a lot of smashing over things that are apparantly OP that are weaker than this. S'only fair that this gets it's fair share of smashing too.

[Bird of Hermes]

Perhaps, make him not so powerful on the Plane of Light. Virtually infinite is too vague if we need checks and balances. Also, make ghosting cost more or define ghosting better.

[Guest]

I don't really know why you are bringing this up again. I already brought it out a couple of months ago, when I brought up several issues that were bothering people. NOBODY was willing to talk about it. Everyone agreed that Alos was perfectly fine. So, the only route left is to trust that Kalon is a competent role-player, and if it gets to the point that Alos becomes too much for the events of the role-play, I will ask Kalon to change certain plot points for the sake of the story itself. Yes, it leaves the opportunity for undesirable outcomes...but Alos is much better off in the hands of Kalon than he would be in say....the hands of Raptorman, yes?

As I have said since the beginning, since no one is willing to really hammer anything out in terms of specifics (at least not collaboratively), the answer is we will deal with it as it comes. If it gets to be overbearing, I will step in. I don't mind trying to work out specifics with Alos and the paladins, but this issue has been brought up too many times already.

[Guilty Carrion]

Part of what we asked for all those months ago was a CS so we had something to actually see, to see what Alos COULD do. We didn't agree, I just checked, unless there was some agreeing going on in PMs that I wasn't aware of. Kalon mentioned making a CS for him, and that's what it seems like we all kinda waited for before actually develing into a giant debate about what Alos could possibly be without seeing everything he was intended to be from...what? The six times he's mentioned? There was nothing concrete about Alos, aside from immortality, and god-power.

I'm not trying to make waves, but no one really seemed to agree. Sorry if I sound confrontational, but I'm not seeing agreeance unless it hapened else where, out of public view.

Sorry.

[Shadow Moonseye]

Hey guys. This is more of a spot holder than anything else, but I just want to say that I'm working on a long, thought out response to recent things. I hope to have it up soon, so please keep an eye out for it.

And remember, Emoria is important to all of us. We all want to enjoy it, whether we're on the antagonistic side or the protagonistic or somewhere in between. Tempers might flare, but we're all in this together. We've done something wonderful here. Lets not let hasty words or emotions get out of hand and bring down what we've worked so hard on to create.

[Kalon Ordona II]

No worries, Shadow.
I welcome your challenges, Plaguewalker. I don't want an overpowered character running around any more than you do, and you've pointed out a few flaws I've missed. The limits need to be more clearly delineated.

First of all, I'd like to clarify the danger Alos faces. While he can't "die," he can "diminish." If he is harmed past a certain point, he is basically forced to retreat into his domain to recover for a ridiculously long time, dependent upon the level of harm past the critical point. It could be anywhere from centuries to millennia before he resurfaces.

Obviously, it would be wise to retreat to the Light Plane in situations of critical danger, rather than risk being diminished.

Now all we need to do is determine what the critical point is.
Let us say, just for a starting point, that he has physical strength equivalent to two average male humans, justified by stature and amount of energy. That's probably quite a bit less than a Tynir, physically. Let us also say, then, that his Material body has twice the physical defense of an average human male's. Human x 2 for physical form, succinctly speaking.

Potential energy is a whole different ball game. Light is probably the most basic form of high-level energy. In the Light Plane he would probably have access to energy equivalent to Earth's sun, but in the Material he only has his physical form to contain what energy he can. It might be a lot compared to Material standards, but in the face of what he is in the Light Plane, he's nothing here. All that to say, he has an upper limit of energy in the Material plane. The limit can be increased or decreased probably on the order of 25% combined maximum. That is, in an orderly and positive environment, at high noon, you could probably increase his upper limit by 25%. Similarly, in, say, a chaotic battle at midnight during a new moon, you could probably get his limit decreased by 25%.
The heat/cold, harmony/discord, light/shadow conditions affect recharge, not capacity. Let's say, in neutral conditions, he can recharge from empty to full in... I dunno... 2 hours? Given that figure, we could say that heat/cold conditions affect the rate by 10%, harmony/discord by 20%, and light/shadow by 30%, adding up to a possible maximum of 50%, yielding 1 hour recharge time at best conditions and 3 hours at worst.

So, what is the energy capacity limit? Again, just for a starting point for consideration, let's say it's the equivalent of... urm... I'm not an energy science expert, so I'll phrase it in terms of effect. If he used all his power at once, from full to empty--which he wouldn't--he might be able to produce light bright enough to blind any living creature within sight, even through a shield up to 1 foot in thickness. That is, you would have to hide behind a two-foot-thick wall on all sides to lose no vision whatsoever, even temporarily. Between one and two feet would be a sliding bar of temporary vision impairment. These are arbitrary values. If he converted the energy to heat instead of light, he might char everything within a half-mile radius--though no fires would start. If it were a blast of sound, it would be death up to a quarter mile, coma at half, unconscious at three quarters, deaf at a mile, and audible up to fifty miles. He wouldn't do any of those things, but there's the arbitrary neutral limit.

Projecting thoughts and feelings requires mental exertion, not energy. Mental abilities wouldn't be affected by the different planes. What would this mean? The projection of thoughts, feelings, and emotions would be influenced by focus, intensity, and distance. Let us say that it would take all Alos's mental ability to completely control the mind of an average individual over a distance of 100 miles. 2 people, completely, 50 miles. 4 people, completely, 25 miles. 100 people, completely, 1 mile. 200 people, half-way, 1 mile. 400 people, half-way, half-mile.
Military officers would obviously not be average people, and different races might be mentally stronger or weaker than average.
Battles are also chaotic, which reduces the recharge. And if Shadow is present, capacity would also be reduced.

Mental exertion also applies to physical actions and energy usage, in the form of limits. If he's using half his mental exertion and simultaneously uses half his internal energy, he wouldn't have any problem. If it's half exertion and he wants to use all his energy, the energy use and effect would be reduced to three quarters. That is, any energy use that exceeds the mental exertion limit would be reduced by whatever percentage of exertion was not used for energy use. Energy use requires negligible mental exertion on its own, but it is limited by mental exertion if the desired energy use exceeds the current level of mental exertion.

Did I cover everything...?
Well, that's probably good to start with.

Oh wait! Right, so here are some arbitrary limits for ghosting, levitation and flight. It would take drain all his physical strength to: ghost for 6 hours straight or levitate for 4 hours straight, or both for 2 hours straight. Flight would be a tax on levitation relative to speed, up to a maximum of 50%. Let's say the neutral maximum speed is mach 2--about 1500 mph at sea level, or around 1300 mph at 30,000 ft. He could do this for 2 hours. If he was also ghosting for the whole time, he could only do it for 1 hour, but the speed would be increased to, say, 1700 mph regardless of altitude or material, because there would be no air resistance (or earth resistance, or lava resistance, or bird resistance, or arrow resistance...). Neutral recharge time from empty to full would be 12 hours--slightly longer if he's still walking about at ease as opposed to remaining motionless.

Of course, these all are values for maximum limit. The maximum limit would never, ever be used, because empty = diminished. And if he has to diminish, he risks giving the Shadow free reign for however long it takes him to recover.

Thoughts?
Did I leave anything out?

Oh, I should add that energy ignores ghosting. Ghosting applies only to physical things.

[Shadow Moonseye]

So, I literally just spent four hours on my last night off typing this all up. I know it's a lot to read, but I would really, really appreciate it if you'd all take the time to read it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey guys,

I know that Emoria can be stressful; we’re all trying to build a story that everyone can be happy with. Something that everyone can enjoy. And its hard. Its really freaking hard and taxing for even the most patient of people. You’re all wonderfully creative and talented people, that’s part of what makes Emoria so great.

This has been said many times before by people more active and far more involved than me; but I think it really needs to be said again. Emoria is a collaborative effort. It can’t work if people aren’t willing to bend a little bit here and there. I can understand not wanting to endanger your creations; hell, I’m very protective of the I’nak. But, there’s a difference between bending to small things and changing a fundamental core concept of our various races and nations. The fact is, that if everyone was unwilling to bend or give ground, we wouldn’t have much of a story. Three of our players are giving up their entire worldspaces for the sake of the story, and I’m so so thankful that they are doing that. Why can’t we all embrace that kind of spirit?

From the very beginning it has been decided that “good” will win. We should all understand that by this point. We all agreed to that. You say that you want this story to be an epic, a fight against all odds, something that sticks with you and leaves an impression. Something that matters. No one wants to see their beloved creations suffer. No one wants to be on the loosing side. But how does the protagonists eventual win over the antagonists compare if there is no loss? If there’s no suffering, no hardship to make the fight worth fighting for, nothing to drive home just why our characters are fighting?

Would you know the temptation of the ring, would you see the weight of Frodo’s burden if you didn’t watch Boromir’s fall? Would the tale of The Road be so powerful and heart wrenchingly beautiful if we weren’t able to watch the father struggle, knowing that each breath brought him closer to death, yet he still continued to carry the fire for his son? Would Halo: Reach be as powerful if the planet didn‘t fall, if you didn’t watch every single one of your squad mates die in the futile attempt to save their home? Would you feel the gravity of Shepard’s mission in Mass Effect if you didn’t have to choose between two members of your own crew? Could you understand the strength of the bond between Billy and Old Dan and Little Ann in Where the Red Fern Grows if both dogs didn’t die despite his best efforts to save them?

What I’m trying to say is, you’ll get out of Emoria what you put into it. Me? I made an isolationist culture, trying to protect my creation. Because of that, I don’t have a large place in the plot. I’m a minor player through my own actions. If you want to have a story that shines, that tells this epic tale of bravery in the face of terrible loss, then you need to be willing to let that loss happen first.

I realize that this hasn’t touched the current subject of Alos. The fact of the matter is that I was waiting on a character sheet before I dug into addressing my problems with him. Silence is agreement through non-action, so I’m speaking up and hoping to be heard. I’ve listed my issues with him below so they’re easier to find in all of this.

- Though it has been said many times that he isn’t a god, it still feels as though he is one, albeit one that isn’t referred to as a god.
- In general his powers are vague as to what they can do and what they cost him. Especially ghosting and his thought/feeling projection onto other beings.
- He can’t die. I feel that if Morgarath is capable of being killed, his Light Plane equivalent (Alos) should be able to be killed as well.
- If he is as powerful of a character as he is said to be, I honestly feel like he should be an NPC. I feel as though Emoria should be left the mortals (and those immortals that can be killed).

Now, Kalon just did a thorough explanation of his powers and addressed many things, so I’ll respond to him.

His physical strength: Okay, I’m fine with that. Thanks for elaborating.

It might be a lot compared to Material standards, but in the face of what he is in the Light Plane, he's nothing here: I’m not concerned about what he is in the Light Plane, I’m concerned about what he is here in the Material Plane where our characters live and make their lives and fight their battles.

He can recharge from empty to full in 2 hours: Honestly, I feel that this is very fast, especially considering it has been made clear that Alos never goes completely empty. Does he recharge while using abilities? If so I have a very large issue with his recharge rate.

He might produce light bright enough to blind any living creature within sight, even through a shield up to 1 foot in thickness: I cannot accept this at all. Light cannot go through solid objects that are not transparent. When you mention blind, are you saying permanent blindness to those within sight? What I take away from this is that unless you are inside a building with two foot thick walls on all sides you are permanently blind if he can see you and decides to do this one ability or a similar ability of lessened potency even if you say he won’t.

If he converted the energy to heat instead of light, he might char everything within a half-mile radius: A half-mile can almost encompass an entire battle unless we’re talking battles on a MASSIVE scale. This is a primarily melee war. Enemies will always be up close and personal with the exception of Crazy Hobo’s mages as close quarters is unfair for them and they do anything to avoid it. So that makes even smaller scales of this exceptionally dangerous.

If it were a blast of sound, it would be death up to a quarter mile, coma at half, unconscious at three quarters, deaf at a mile, and audible up to fifty miles: This is a very powerful sound to make anything deaf at a mile and take into account that anything in a coma or unconscious would lose their hearing as well. Again, this is a close quarters war, so these limits are extreme.

Alos's mental ability to completely control the mind of an average individual over a distance of 100 miles: This is mind control and extremely touchy. While it does not give me concern for my personal characters, as my only current character is an I’nak and they have the complete resistance to mental magic, everyone else is at risk. Again these are large distances for a close quarters war and the potential of an individual being used as an unwilling assassin in non-combat situations.

Spoiler:

Mental exertion also applies to physical actions and energy usage, in the form of limits: Is this referring to Alos’ focus or…? I’m sorry but its not very clear to me as to what it is addressing. Could you please explain this further.

Ghosting: I’d like an explanation of what ghosting is. Is he invisible? Is he intangible? Both? Please explain what it entails.

Ghost for 6 hours straight or levitate for 4 hours straight, or both for 2 hours straight: Again, does he charge while using his abilities?

The neutral maximum speed is mach 2: I find this to be a ridiculous speed, even if it is only for two hours. Especially if he can charge whilst using abilities, this means he could fly for longer than two hours if the recharge is possible during usage.

Neutral recharge time from empty to full would be 12 hours--slightly longer if he's still walking about at ease as opposed to remaining motionless: This seems to me to conflict with your earlier recharge statements. Does this mean that each ability has a separate pool of energy that it depends on and that each can be individually drained and recharged?

I noticed that damage to his physical form wasn’t addressed. Does he have a high sort of body threshold? As in he can shrug off a limb being lopped off or broken? Or does he have a more elven/human body threshold where such a wound would have a more tangible effect on him?

Please note most of these points aren’t addressing the maximum energy expenditure, they refer to the small scale uses of such energy which within a close quarters environment such ranges aren’t necessary.

This can all depend on two things:

A.) Will Alos be joining the battles and fighting against mortals?
B.) How does he stack up against Morgarath?

At this point in time Alos’ powers are far more expanded than Morgarath’s. I suspect this is because Buzzwulf is still in the process of completing Morgarath’s redesign. Once he’s completed, I’d like to see his information lined out and explained in depth so that we can compare him and Alos side by side.

Thank you for reading all this.

~ Shadow Moonseye

Congrats! You just read three and a half pages!
I'd like to thank Plague for helping me with some of my wording.

[Gadreille]

Hopefully you guys can come to an agreement. I've heard no complaints from anyone else, so feel free to take the discussion to PM and let me know the outcome. I or Silvone will make a decision when or if you cannot reach an outcome favorable to both sides. I expect both sides of the issue to give a little and please remember that I have given a ridiculous amount of patience towards the issue of power play which is why I'm letting you guys hash it out without me, for the most part. There is SO not enough IC activity for me to be stressing on this, not at this time anyway. I've got enough real life stuff to worry on.

Edit: reading over this I sound kind of mean, let me try and rephrase. I trust you guys to get through at least most of the issues presented here, because not only have you been doing this for a while, you are all moderators of the website, which, as a non-moderator, gives me a sort of trust in you that I might not have in others. So, those of you who are newer and wondering why I trust some people more than others, obviously if Fate chose them as moderators they are an esteemed group. So, I expect you guys can handle this on your own. If there are points you cannot come to agreement on, you can then take them to me and I will either decide or hold a vote if I cannot decide.

[Bird of Hermes]

First, I would like to thank Kalon for spelling everything out and giving us specifics. It really has helped me fully understand Alos' power. Though, with the better explanation, I am seeing some things I think may pose a problem.

Second, that is a large wall-of-text, but I read it all and I now have some new concerns.

He might produce light bright enough to blind any living creature within sight, even through a shield up to 1 foot in thickness.

If he converted the energy to heat instead of light, he might char everything within a half-mile radius.

If it were a blast of sound, it would be death up to a quarter mile, coma at half, unconscious at three quarters, deaf at a mile, and audible up to fifty miles.

These are extremely powerful. I know that you said these powers can only be used at full charge, but, from what I gather, getting Alos to full charge is not hard at all.

Let us say that it would take all Alos's mental ability to completely control the mind of an average individual over a distance of 100 miles.

I am very wary of full mind control. I have seen it used in the past and it's never ended well. People generally don't take it well if all their character's actions can become null and void by the mental power of another player's.

Right, so here are some arbitrary limits for ghosting, levitation and flight.

I like the limits, but, like others, I am still confused as to what ghosting actually is.

Finally, the whole "Alos can't die" concept...

It's just too much. I was under the impression that all characters should be mortal. Everyone dies some time. That includes the Lord of Light and the Lord of Shadow. Characters may be "immortal", but they should be able to be killed. If not, what is the danger? Perhaps, if Alos dies, instead of being sent to recover in the Light Plane, his energies are sent back to the Plane of Light to, one day, be used to create a new Lord of Light. A bit like reincarnation, but Alos would actually die.

Now, I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way... I would hate to see ANY character die, but all characters should be ABLE to be killed.

I am aware that I have agreed to Alos in the past, but these new concerns come from the specifics in Kalon's last post.

[Kalon Ordona II]

Well, as I said, those were arbitrary values just so we had some solid concept. I'm completely open to input.

I would define "Ghosting" as the ability to pass through any object unhindered: walls, earth, air, etc. Also, ghosting isn't selective. That is, he can only ghost his entire self. He couldn't, for example, fly into enemy lines and start clobbering people while they can't touch him. In a battle, assuming he was present, the safest thing to do would be to ghost all the time and stay away from the fighting, just in case someone had physical projectiles of sufficient range.

One addendum: ghosting would preserve momentum but ignore gravity. That is, he wouldn't sink into the ground if he ghosted, and neither would he float up into the sky. Moving while ghosted would require the levitation/flight ability.

Recharge would not occur while an ability is in use. Or, if it does, the amount would be negligible. Another way we could do it is to say the time limit includes any recharge that happens during use. That probably makes the most sense.

Recharge rates: there are three, or to be more precise, two. Mental exertion requires no recharge; its effects apply only while in use, the way you can think hard about something and then immediately think hard about something else. Potential energy is like a meter: his body can only hold so much, though efficiency can be increased or decreased up to a combined possible maximum of 25% (meaning it would be difficult to get all 25 of that % ^_^). Physical exertion is like when you do stuff and get tired. You need some time to rest, except Alos doesn't need to sleep--he just stays inactive to recharge that. Make sense?

The difference between Alos and Morgarath--as gleaned from in-depth chats with Raptorman, before--is that Morgarath was either an already existing person or was someone crafted by the Shadow Lords. It is the Shadow Lords, and not Morgarath, who are Alos's opposite, and as such, they would not die either.

This next bit is NOT from Raptorman, but is my own attempt to follow things through to their logical end. My theory is that killing either Alos or the Shadow Lords (whose number and names were never delineated), would result in catastrophe for all of Emoria--excepting the Spirit Plane. If there are equivalent beings, like the Earth Mother, in other Planes, the result would be the same, or worse, if they were killed. Essentially, if and when of these beings are killed (hypothetically), the corresponding Plane would either go out of existence or become critically reduced. The world would either end altogether or would be irrevocably altered, to devastating effect. If this happened to the Light Plane, all light would either go out completely or be worse than halved; If the Shadow Plane, than the opposite would occur: either total white or more than half-way to it. The effects would be even worse if this happened to the elemental planes. If the Plane of Air, all life would suffocate either instantly or over a period of time. If Water, either all life would either dry up and die more or less instantly, or there would be deserts everywhere. If Earth, either the world would implode, or you'd see tons of earthquakes and volcanoes everywhere. If Fire, either the world would turn to ice, or there would be perpetual winter.

That's why I think none of these beings could ever destroy the other. My theory is that they CAN die, but only by the power of the Spirit Plane. You would need the power of the Spirit Plane to have enough to destroy one of them. Since that won't happen, then in effect, neither Alos nor the Shadow Lords nor any other equivalent being (the Material Plane, at least, would have none) can die.

Hence the concept of "diminishing."
This is what happens when balance is lost, which is inevitable over the course of history, since all planes by nature strive for dominance. The head of the plane would need to retreat into the heart of its domain and recover fully before returning to its normal form. During this time, I theorize, the corresponding plane would be slightly reduced and be inaccessible. The portal would either close automatically or be closed as the head of the plane retreats.

Moving on: mind control. I see the point there. We could slash all mental abilities by 60%, so that the average individual--let alone strong races or individuals--would be still able to wrench back control if they fought with everything they had.

Now then: will Alos be joining any battles?
I would say that is unlikely. It would go against principle. I would say, if he did, he risks the displeasure of the Spirit Plane, and would essentially be villainizing himself to a certain extent. He doesn't have authority to directly influence events in the Material Plane. ("Directly influence" would mean running around using your powers to claim territory and fight battles and things.) That was what was so brilliant about the Shadow Lords' strategy: using a Material host to be able to do exactly that. Alos would never consider such a vile act as possessing another soul, so he had to wait and search for a solution until the Thendári came along.
Would Alos come along for a battle? Eventually, I think so. And he CAN use his power against shadow-born foes, but all his abilities would be less effective against them.

As for the light penetrating the shelter, that's because even stone would light up under these conditions. Solidity is an illusion, and this isn't just any light. This is also why you would need to be totally surrounded by shelter. If the direct light doesn't get you, the reflected light will. And the blindness would indeed mean total, permanent blindness.
What you must remember is that, in a battle, there are two sides. These powers radiate, meaning they would affect allies as well as enemies. He wouldn't do it even if it was all enemies, unless they were creatures from the shadow plane.

And now: how does Alos stack up against Morgarath?
That remains to be seen, but it's safe to assume that Morgarath is stronger in the Material than Alos is.
In hypothetical neutral ground, Alos would exactly equal the Shadow Lords.
However, through their possession of Morgarath, they have more options available to them. They've essentially beaten the system. Morgarath has to die. When he does, the Shadow Lords would probably diminish, since they're all crammed inside Morgarath.
Balance will be lost, but it won't seem like it at first, since for millennia the Shadow has had an edge, because of Morgarath. Emoria deserves a break.

Not that it'll necessarily get one.

Anyway, I think I answered everything. What do you all think now?
To summarize: The only real change would be a complete slash of mental abilities by 60% across the board. The rest was clarification.

[Bird of Hermes]

I guess my only remaining problem is that Emoria's existence relies on Alos.

Alos is one being. Alos is (virtually) the Plane of Light. And Alos is a player character.

Those three things do not mix to me.

Here's why...

Alos is one being and Alos is the Light Plane: He's not like Morgarath where multiple Shadow Lords gave their power to him. He is the Light Plane's version of the Shadow Lords, but all in one. So, he's not a messenger or vessel or whatever for the forces of light. He IS the light. Not hypothetically. Not in name. Not to the Thendári. He IS the light. Which to me either means he's the ultimate light being (which makes him almost a god) or the Light Plane itself (and that's a plane, not a person).

Alos is a player character: I know Morgarath is a PC, but he is controlled by multiple people. I don't believe you would misuse Alos, but I don't think it's quite right that one player should control a character that, if killed, would mean utter chaos in Emoria.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I just feel like it's a bit unbalanced.

[Kalon Ordona II]

*shrug* I was asked to make a character sheet, so I did. He can be an NPC, if that would be better.

Edit:
Actually, according to that theory, Emoria's existence wouldn't rely on Alos, because he wouldn't die. That's the whole point of the "diminish" concept: to avoid that very problem. It's a very dangerous and undesirable equivalent to death, while not actually being death. So Alos faces a very, very real danger. And the danger is only to him. Emoria doesn't suffer catastrophically if he diminishes--life goes on, albeit less brightly.

Would that assuage concerns?

[Bird of Hermes]

*shrug* I was asked to make a character sheet, so I did. He can be an NPC, if that would be better.

If Alos stays like he is, I would prefer him to be an NPC, like Morgarath. Obviously, you should be head of the "Alos NPC Committee of Light-Bearing Vengeance" since you know Alos best, if there ever needs to be one. I think you are doing a good job with him, I just would want multiple people's input if Alos is used in the story since he has such a big role.

Actually, according to that theory, Emoria's existence wouldn't rely on Alos, because he wouldn't die. That's the whole point of the "diminish" concept: to avoid that very problem.

Would that assuage concerns?

Well, it still depends on his existence even if he can't die as far as I understand it.

My theory is that killing either Alos or the Shadow Lords (whose number and names were never delineated), would result in catastrophe for all of Emoria--excepting the Spirit Plane.

There's the quote in question.

[Kalon Ordona II]

I edited my post again after you posted. Sorry.

It's a very dangerous and undesirable equivalent to death, while not actually being death. So Alos faces a very, very real danger. And the danger is only to him. Emoria doesn't suffer catastrophically if he diminishes. Life goes on--albeit, perhaps, a little less brightly.

Does the new information assuage your previous concerns?

[Bird of Hermes]

I just edited my post to include that.

Edit: Sorry for the editing and back and forth craziness. -_-

[Kalon Ordona II]

It depends on the Shadow Lords' existence, too, and all the whatever else of the other planes.

Regardless, I'm fine with keeping him an NPC, out of principle.

[Bird of Hermes]

It depends on the Shadow Lords' existence, too, and all the whatever else of the other planes.

I am trying not to mess with the Fire, Water or Earth Planes any more than I already have since I want to leave them open if someone wants to make a character from those planes. If we make those beings, it would have to be a collaborative thing. I know that I made a sentient species for each plane, but I don't want to take it further than that because the Air Plane is my world-space, not all the Elemental Planes. That's too much power for one girl.

Anyway, I am fine with Alos now. Thanks for clearing everything up.

[Buzzwulf]

EDIT: people posted while I was writing this. A lot. I'm not sure if it's still relevant, but I'm gonna post it anyway!

Gonna throw in my 2 cents here real quick for some redefinition: I saw the shadow lords as very powerful spirits of the dark that had achieved sentience through some coincidence of random chance. Not only are they not the only things in the shadow plane, they may not even be the most powerful things in the shadow plane. As a coalition, they managed to achieve something that has been genuinely worrying on a massive scale, but they themselves are pretty unobtrusive.

Basically, I'm a little worried with Alos' "Lord of Light" title. As my understanding of it goes, the shadow plane is not unified, and certainly not under a single ruler. I'm a little confused as to why the plane of light would be. that's really just an organizational problem, but it doesn't really make sense to me to be able to turn the whole of any plane to be tuned to a single individual. You can't be any more the lord of a plane than you can be lord of the world, it seems to me. You can have great power in any one place, but that doesn't translate to it bending to your every whim.

What I am a little worried about is some of the smaller particulars. Not dying is my primary concern: he should probably be able to do that. Mind manipulation never seems like a good idea in an RP: it just annoys everyone, and hurts the feeling that someone is generally in control of their own destiny. I don't have a lot of problems with some of his other stuff- normal mages seem like they should be able to replicate many of those effects anyway, so I don't feel like it's a massive deal. Hell, my main character's sister is much more loosely defined than that, and nobody seems to have made a massive deal about that. I'm a little worried about the sound thing: dead at a quarter mile? what? But that's just a bit of tweaking.

What I'm worried about is the portrayal of Alos as THE global force for good. Great, awesome, he's a powerful mage with some cool abilities and above-average strength- but I'm not so sure there should be such an obvious figure to rally around vs. Morgarath.

The other problem I'm having is that now I pretty much need to build Morgarath and his abilities based on this, and I have a really big conundrum: I can't make Morgarath that much of a monster, because he hasn't just jumped Alos in some dark alley and gotten rid of his biggest competition yet. On the other hand, he can't be a cakewalk for any idiot that waltzes in with plate mail and a sword. It's a weird little balancing act, especially since he already appears to be attacking Vatienne all on his lonesome. I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to proceed on that.

[Guilty Carrion]

So, the guy the 'Highest' sent to beat Shadow back, and make the Thendari guard the rift, is gonna get in trouble if he beats some heads together...from the very dude who sent him to do just that? I don't follow the reasoning there. And it dosen't 'villianize' him, at least not to the people he'd give two craps about, so I really see nothing stopping him from going, "Oh yeah, it's some shadow ass-kicking time."

In regards to that...well, that leaves a massive swath of creatures he can royally fuck up. Shadow creatures are Ordingaunts(that's the Spawnlings name), Sythen, and the Sirens(who still need a name, but I just got their approval, and this came up, so they're on hold), which comprise the bulk of the M.O.N. Horde. Which you can blast with massive amounts of juju...I'm honestly not seeing any drawbacks to this.

This diminishing/apocolypse if they die thing...seriously, I'm beginning to view Emoria as a giant collossal plaything for a group of deities that are insistant that they aren't deities. The material Plane shouldn't rely on the other planes, just as the other planes don't rely on each other for existance. If the light plane goes to hell, then that's the light plane gone kaput. If there's a sun in the sky, we'll have light, unless Alos is the sun personified and when he dies, the sun goes OH NOES and dies.

If these guys kick around, I want. them. to. DIE. Every character so far can die. The Fae? They die. Priests? They yell at you and die at the same time. Ordingaunts, they die. Meyul will die. Tusohe will die. Everyone in the world, except the Fae, and the Thendari and Liches, will die if you just wait. And with those three, you just gotta get pro-active on them, as much as you can anyway. From what I've gleaned of the Paladins, they're shaping up to be Grey Wardens, and I'm leery, but hey, I stab them in the chest, they die without medical attention.

As for stacking up againest Alos...I know morgarath dosen't really stack up. Why? I mentioned it awhile ago(I think no one read it, big suprise) about the in progress Morgarath character sheet. And in said character sheet, it mentions that the Third Illuria War? Not the first time someone has 'killed' dear old shadow lord Morgie. He's just got a tricky kill switch, but that means heroes(and minions) of ages past have beaten Morgie. Even if the number dosen't reach the double digits, Mortals, ALONE, have beaten Morgarath. He's not all-powerful. If he dosen't diminish from using all his energy, and he's on par with Alos, these wars would have been over in no time. He'd warp in, blast a tide of people into oblivion, and then scurry off. Rinse, repeat, you now control the entirity of Emoria.

In regards to NPCing Alos, as Morgarath is(I view him as a limited NPC, meaning select people control him, but he's still not really a PC.) I'd be open towards it...but, I'd like for the eventual goal of removing Alos from the Material plane to be present. Call me paranoid(I am horribly paranoid) but he's a floating nuclear bomb waiting to fall when someone acts in counter measure to the light.

World Balance...Honestly? I don't think it's as horribly unbalanced for Shadow as you're seeing. If the Shadow Lords(I'm going to PM buzz on these dudes and be all "What ARE these?" Which I'm sure will lead to "I'unno." And we'll laugh and then do another dose of work which we really don't need, but...fairness. I want to be fair, so they'll be defined.) have been seriously dominating in the acts of Shadow...why is there only a strip of land and half an island under their control? That dosen't really speak of domination, it says stalemate, crap, we're stuck. But, this one is kinda petty, and more just a personal eh moment, since the Paladins are everywhere and going Yeah, eff you mate. So, not really important, just rambling.

Ghosting limit spells as well, correct?

Also...can I just say...the Spirit Plane is kinda annoying me...for the resting place of the dead, it certainly seems to be bossing people around, and has a shit ton of power...and, whilst I'm not saying it is, it's really feeling like that it's starting to solidify the existance of some ungodly powerful being chilling up there, and cementing the views of certain world spaces. That's what it's beginning to feel like by the way it keeps getting brought up.

And buzz has posted...I think this is enough for now. Two hours staring at this, I don't feel like going on.

In regards to the Shadow Lords, Buzz, I like that, and it fits with a random line I imagined my Lich Lord saying. "There are greater things lurking in the black than shadows, and you would do well not to draw their gaze." Just a random thing that comes up.

-Plaguewalker

[Kalon Ordona II]

((The following is in response to buzzwulf. Plaguewalker beat me to it. I'm writing up a new post.))

Here's further detail on the Shadow Lords, derived from what I learned from Raptorman and combined with what's up there for Alos.

You've got the Light Plane, with all its creatures, and the Shadow Plane, with all IT'S creatures. Then you've got the leading force of each plane. For the Light Plane, it's one person: Alos. For the Shadow Plane, it's the Shadow Lords (whatever their number and names are). Why the difference? It's not so much good vs. evil as it is order vs. chaos. Light can only be one way; darkness can be all sorts of dark. So you've got a single rule for the Light and several rulers for the Shadow. The people in the corresponding planes like it that way. Shadow likes the chaos, the competition; Light likes the order and security.

So, while at first it might seem odd to have 1 guy equal whatever number of other guys, that's just the nature of their respective planes. There are pros and cons. While the Shadow Lords aren't as strong individually, they're also separate targets. You have to defeat them all for the Shadow Lords to diminish, where as you only need to defeat the solitary guy on the side of Light. In this way, while the Shadow Lords' strategy in Morgarath is brilliant and devastating in its effectiveness, it is also their weakness. Morgarath is now a single target.

You don't have to worry too much about the balancing act, though, buzzwulf. Morgarath is more effective in the Material plane than Alos is, and has been for thousands of years. That's why Alos needs the Thendari.

Now, Alos isn't necessarily the global force for good. He just seems to be right now. If he wins, there's nothing saying he won't further the agenda of Light, ignoring the greater good. I haven't decided yet. ^_^ And anyway, everybody's ignoring the Thendari, remember?

Still, if you've gotta fight darkness, who would YOU rally behind? xD

[Guilty Carrion]

Quick snippet Kalon, I don't really want to draw on the Shadow Lords as Raptor envisioned them, because that's how he did it, and we've got an entirely different ball game going on now(not totally different, but, new management). I'd prefer to see something worked out that's new, and accepted by everyone.

Also, I forgot to mention this in my last post. To those of us in Emoria who frequent chat...this isn't a swat at any of you directly, just more of a general statement. Talking about it amongest each other in chat, and then never saying anything at all in here, does you nothing. No one can read minds(Alos, I'm looking at you.) and when things go wrong in here, and it's talked about in chat...no one gets to see that save for those involved. So, please guys, when you've got a problem, and get the grah out in chat...bring some of it here too? Or else you're talking in circles and accomplishing nothing but infruiating yourselves.

Danka, comrades.

[Kalon Ordona II]

We've been over the 'The Highest' thing before. We're not even sure if Alos is telling the truth about that. We know the Rift is real, that's all. I didn't say the 'The Highest' if-it-exists-thing was going to get on Alos's case; I said the Spirit Plane, leaving blank what might be there. My point was that there are probably rules to these guys' actions. You can't ask for details on somebody and then shove them back into the mists of ambiguity. If Alos exists, what is he, what can he do, and what does he want? That's what I'm endeavoring to answer. The long answer can be found over the last few posts.

The short three-fold answer, currently, is: he is the avatar of the Light Plane, he can do a bunch of Light stuff, and he wants the advancement of Light.

Where does logic follow? That there are other avatars of the other planes. From Raptorman we got the Shadow Lords. From Sighlent we got the Earth Mother. I'm assuming there is an equivalent for each plane except the Material (and possibly Spirit, but that's a moot issue since the Spirit Plane is not up for exploration).
Where else does logic follow? That the Planes are important and interdependent, especially the Material Plane, where it all comes together. The existence of portals reaffirms that. The Sundering minimizes the confrontations between the different planes, helping maintain a more calm equilibrium.
Why? Because the Planes conflict. Why? Because they're forces or elements of nature. Nature always furthers itself, its separate elments competing in balance. It follows that each of the Planes would follow this pattern.
From there: If the Planes are interdependent and balance is important, what happens when one of the Planes disappears? It all falls apart.
Therefore: No single Plane must disappear.
Therefore: The avatars/rulers/heads of the Planes must not die.
Therefore: Something needs to keep them from dying. What could possibly keep them from dying, in all possible scenarios? The Spirit Plane, regardless of what it comprises.

That's my rationale for the not-dying and the nature of Emoria. They don't die; if they're defeated, they diminish, so life can go on while they recover. Think of them as personifications of their respective bits of nature.

Put like that, it does start to feel like the unwanted deities.


Now let me turn all of this on its ear.


Suppose everything I just said up there is not the whole truth.

How about something like this:
Everything about all that is what can be found through the compiled knowledge of the Material Plane--basically, the Great Library--plus a little hypothesizing.
You know how in the movies you'll hear, "You taught me everything I know."
Ah, "But not everything I know."

Let us, the writers, assume that there is more to this than meets the eye. That Alos might NOT be the only powerful being in the Light Plane, if even its lord. That the Shadow Lords might NOT be the only powerful beings in the Shadow Plane, if even its rulers. That the Earth Mother might NOT be the only powerful being in the Earth Plane, or even its head.

This feels to me more like the original spirit of Emoria. So, in that spirit, all we have to do is, say, slash all Alos's abilities by 80%.
It could be because he's weaker in the Material Plane.
Or it could be because he's choosing not to use powers because of some system of rules.
Or it could be because he's actually weaker.
We will choose not to know.

All I have to do is attach an "according to Thendari lore" to all the stuff about Alos and the nature of Emoria.

It looks like we'll all have to be content with Not Ever Knowing For Sure what makes Emoria tick, which I guess goes just fine with the style set forth by the GM's.

Does that solve things?
Thoughts?

[Guilty Carrion]

My point regarding the spirit plane was that with needing to get it's permission and all that, and all this bossing it can do, was making it very, very clear that SOMETHING was there, and it, as of the current moment, is very aligned with screwing over the 'dark' side.

Also...Bird kinda made it rather clear that the Four Elements aren't really competing anymore...their all in a alliance, so, the planes aren't competing save for Light and Shadow.

And, before I delve into the second half...if they are the personifications of their element, the very elements that the entire material plane is entirely dependent on, then HOW, I seriously ask this in ALL honesty, are these not the very gods that said, YES. EMORIA SHALL NOT EXIST. There's too much immortality kicking around, and I am so effing important that the world NEEDS me to exist as it does. If they all NEED each other to exist, then they'd be intelligent enough not to screw with each other EVER. Even real life humans aren't THAT stupid.

I know this is all redundant by the second half of the post, but one last thing...what was said CAN'T really be the truth, A.) because it's kinda the rule that we're NOT supposed to actually pinpoint all of Emoria's workings, since this is fantasy and Gods are generally the source of everything in fantasy(I maintain Evolution for the Tynir, as does Shadow for the i'nak, but that's, as always, left hanging, not defining.) And B.) Because to call it the truth when you're just following logic yourself, and not giving an input(not saying you are, but if that's the 'truth') then you wouldn't be giving the rest of us an input. Again, point B isn't saying you're doing this, especially since you've got the other half of the post.

Which, I'll post about in the morning. it needs more thought for me, personally, and I'd like to do something other than this tonight. Till tommorrow.

-Plaguewalker

And to Ryona, thank you for your patience and trust. I'm personally glad this is staying public, as I feel, and I know you and Silvone prefer it, when these sort of things are dealt with before the group instead of behind hushed doors. This way, I think everyone, not just us mods, can weigh in and voice their opinions.

[Loki]

Alright, I'll throw in my two cents on the matter really quick, but it may seem somewhat unorganized since I have work shortly.

First off, the diminishing thing. In my mind, if something cannot die it is a god no matter its other powers. If something can die, but doing so greatly disrupts the natural order of the universe, that is a defining factor of a very powerful god.

Personally, if Alos is the "Lord of Light", the head of the Light Plane, he should not be taking residence in another Plane. Just as a king resides within the safety of his kingdom, the absence of a king for extended periods of time breeds unrest within his kingdom. From a diplomatic standpoint, housing a ruling body for long periods of time within your own nation can also cause strife. Every guest is capable of overstaying their welcome, and in the sense of ruling bodies it is a line between establishing relations between kingdoms and scouting for potential territory. Basically put, rulers of the planes should stay within their own Plane lest they start to raise suspicion over their motives. Especially when they go about interacting with the natives and building an army in his name.

Since Alos is a Lord from another Plane, I feel his interactions with the Material Plane must be severely kept in check lest he risk breaking the treaty that keeps peace between the Planes. It's been a while since I've read up on the lore and I don't have time to check if I recalled the treaty correctly or if there is even a treaty. By having a mortal nation form around him, his presence has already effected the Material Plane to a point that would likely have the other planes shooting skeptical glances. I personally view the final straw would be if he was to actually take the life of a native to the Material Plane. Regardless to their alignment, abilities, or race; unless they are a vessel for the energies of another Plane (i.e. Morgie) he should not be able to manipulate or harm them in any way. Direct interaction with the Material Plane by a ruler of another Plane should be a biiiiig nono since it basically equates to an act of war between Planes.

On the term of mental manipulation, I just fail to see how that falls under the jurisdiction of Light. Spirit maybe but not Light. I think you should just forego that ability since it is very touchy from an RP aspect to begin with, which is made exponentially so when it becomes a counter-operative RP.

Anyways, that's all the time I have to work on this what with the work thing. I'll probably have a more clearly stated summary once I get some free time, but my schedule is getting pretty clustered between now and Saturday when I go on vacation.

[Gadreille]

@plague:

It's cool, I just hope you don't mind me remaining on the sidelines. I don't feel like putting input on every little thing, especially when I might have to make big decisions later. I need to remain on the fence until then.

So do me a favor, and let me know what the final outcome is either in PM or in a big pretty post here, so I don't need to read all of these baby steps you guys are taking.

I also want to say I am in favor of Alos as an NPC, with Kalon and two others on his council. I hope that part sticks, because a lot of people were hinting that idea already, and since Kalon is for it I think it's worth doing. Also, it should lift a fuckload of your paranoia (and everyone else's), especially considering you are not without power yourself. Obviously, you are just not paranoid of yourself because you know you won't do anything stupid. While Alos deserves a very critical eye and I'm glad everyone is talking it out, we also need to remember that Kalon is not Raptor and that will be calculated in the final arrangement.

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