Re: Emoria: World-Building OOC

[Crazy Hobo]

While the number does seem ridiculously huge at first glance, you do have to take in the fact that ships are utterly useless in a ground war, which is usually the majority of most war. I mean I really felt a little scared at the massive size of his fleet at first but then I realized how situational it really was. I mean any nation that is getting bombarded by his fleet can just move inland and then the problem is solved. Also, I would think it would be ludicrously impractical to send his entire fleet after one nation.

[Gadreille]

You all bring up good points. I'd like to have Silvone take a look at it before any decisions are made, so by tomorrow there should be a more helpful response.

[Guest]

I would like to mention quickly a few things of my own.

The Shienienaran's depend on the trade those ships bring in to survive on any level. They are traders, and between themselves as well as with others. If they were to mobilize their entire forces they would starve and become bankrupt incredibly quickly. The degree of fleet they could really use for war by each Viceroy would be about 30 ships without having serious issues.

They also by nature are extremely spread out trading with everyone, imagine how long it would take to contact all those ships by messenger of some sort and bring word back without modern technology. Seriously it is nigh impossible for such a flee to be assembled. I would put the available ships per Viceroyalty for halfway quick actions at about 30.

Their fleet is their lifesblood as well as defense.

[Kalon Ordona II]

I have another concern: exploration.
If there's this huge navy, then why, over hundreds of years, have NONE of them even come close to seeing the western continent. Why, indeed, haven't they explored it a hundred times over by now? If they're so dependent on trade, why wouldn't they constantly be searching for new and exotic lands to trade with?

Spire has a navy, and there are those pirates, but they're on the western side of Talonia, much farther away from the eastern continent, so it makes more sense that the eastern continent hasn't been dealt with much. (Except, apparently, by Vatienne who established a colony there.)

Still, you'd think Raptorman's race would be a large presence in the western continent, with all those enormous ships.

[Chainlinc3]

I still feel that the analogy to the Fae holds significant weight in this affair. Where the Fae were concerned, I was dealing not with arguments against the power that could reasonably be employed (ie- without wiping out my race), but rather I had to defend against arguments regarding how much power the Fae could bring to the table in the hypothetical situation that they threw all concerns to the wind.

As such (and especially considering that you, Raptorman, were one of the people arguing thusly) I feel the Shienienaran's fleet must be taken into account the same way; in the event that the Shienienaran as a race threw all existential concerns to the wind and pulled a, for lack of a better term (well, actually just because I REALLY like this term), "Operation: Fuck The World," how much power could they bring to the table? If anything, the comparison between Fae and Shienienaran would point against the Shienienaran; the fleet may be the "lifeblood as well as defense" of the Shienienaran, but the Fae literally ARE the Fae, and I was still addressing the possibility of a weaponized mass-suicide.

The level of power and the effects of it's hypothetical employment is easily within the range of the possibility of a mass-suicide attack from the Fae. With 2000 ships of that magnitude, the Shienienaran are in possession of a navy of ridiculous proportion to any existing navies. They could easily eliminate any standing navy and then keep ships blockading any port cities and effectively looting what they used to trade for. Furthermore, a scenario like that would allow a higher number of ships to be pulled from trade duties because they would simply be robbing what they used to trade for.

[Kalon Ordona II]

A bunch of us including Raptorman got in chat. Here's what we came up with.

Instead of 100 war/merchant ships for each of the Shienienarans' 20 viceroys, it can be cut down to each having 20 that are armed for war, and the rest just plain merchant ships (albeit very, very large ones). That comes to roughly 20 for war and 55 for trade, each, with a grand total of 400 for war and 1,100 for trade. Much more plausible, while still more than sufficiently impressive, all told.

The question of materials for all those ships is solved thus:
+ hundreds of years to grow new trees
+ tons and tons of trees from the sun-people, who don't want trees because they're fire-hazards
+ buying trees from other nations across the very, very large landmass that is Arcona.

As for exploration, that is still a concern, at least for me.
One suggestion was that, before now, the Shienienarans did not feel secure enough, even if they did know about the western continent, to venture that way. There might be danger, after all, and even though Talonia isn't far away, it's still far enough to be quite costly, when there's already a finely workable and lucrative arrangement going on for them in Arcona.

I would argue, however, that the same obsessions of grandeur that caused them to build such ridiculously enormous ships and acquire so much wealth would be the same kind of curiousity/ambition that would inspire them to explore new trade routes. Especially when the western continent IS, actually, quite close by.

So there needs to be a stronger reason, I think, why the Shienienarans--and anyone else with ships, for that matter--are only now beginning to take interest in (or learn of) the western lands.

[Gadreille]

With Sretin being the closest, perhaps we could say that Sretin was in trade with the Shienienarans (After all, we decided thus for the Flamte). With the destruction of Sretin, the Shienienarans would have to venture further into the west to find sources of trade.

[Kalon Ordona II]

What a marvelous idea!
I can't speak for Raptorman, but I think he'll be pleased. ^^

That's a relief to me, too, because since nobody's playing Sretin, nothing will be upset if there had been trade going on for quite some time.

[Gadreille]

Yep, I pretty much run it and I can officially say I don't care

[Guest]

I posted this before realizing there was a 5th page, but the points still stand. But if it seems overaggresive in areas that are being resolved, that is why.

Raptor, if you want a fleet that size with ships that size, you need to convince me where the hell you are getting all of that wood from. Your closest neighbor lives in a wasteland. And he brings up several other points. You live on a narrow coastline. Long, yes, but how exactly do you populate ships of that size on a constant basis? Don't tell me golems, because you've already told me that golems can't be summoned by everyone, and they don't last for very long depending on their current activities.
How is this fleet funded? I know they are ruled by wealth, but every active fleet requires funding. This funding, as well as the materials needed to construct so many massive ships, would have to come from outside your borders. Why do you think Britain or Spain didn't build massive fleets to fight over the New World? They couldn't.
The amount of debris at the bottom of your coastline would be astronomical. Seriously. Costant infighting sinking ships of that size...that again begs that answer of where, exactly, they get the materials for that.

Once again you are forgetting the issue of "Balance." Spire depends on its Navy. It uses its naval fleet to trade with the rest of Talonia. It uses its naval fleet to fight off the pirates. They probably don't have more than 500 ships. I wasn't even imagining a number that high. Granted, Spire is a single city. But 2000 mega-ships is a seriously high number. Even taking off cannons, leaving them as just trade ships, is still economically and environmentally improbable. I can suspend belief in some instances, such as magic and technology levels. But I won't suspend belief when it comes to summoning wood and other materials for a fleet of this size out of thin air.

And I need to say this, because this is getting absolutely out of hand. I have no access to what goes on in the IRC or PM's unless those things are posted here. And I mean here, in the OOC, so that both parties involved can see it and I will know it hasn't been changed at all.
Attitudes in the IRC are absolutely out of hand. "So sue me"? How the hell are we supposed to work around issues with attitudes like that? And from what I've heard, Raptor isn't the only one (though for him that attitude has been around since the very beginning, and I'm getting sick of it). Don't make me demand that every IRC conversation concerning Emoria, and every Private Message, be posted in the OOC or sent to a moderator. I can't do anything about "he said this about me or this in the IRC" because I'm never there. I can't confirm it. I just know it doesn't make for good cooperation between the players of Emoria.

It HAS to STOP! I'm serious.

This also brings me to something else, something important considering the number of war-capable nations we've recently introduced. There has been the question of what to do with war-mongering nations that don't want to be attacked in return. Its this simple. If someone wants to attack you, it has to be ok'd by you. And you don't have to agree to it if you don't like the conditions. If one nation attacks another, they open themselves up to attack. So if you are being attacked with no way to go back on the defensive, tell your attacker in the OOC that you would like to have your neighboring ally attack for you. Work out the details about how that would happen. If you can't both agree, then the war is off. No one is attacking anyone with permission from both parties involved. Don't walk into something you aren't happy with. If they keep complaining or bothering you, let me know.



That is all.

[Guest]

A bunch of us including Raptorman got in chat. Here's what we came up with.

Instead of 100 war/merchant ships for each of the Shienienarans' 20 viceroys, it can be cut down to each having 20 that are armed for war, and the rest just plain merchant ships (albeit very, very large ones). That comes to roughly 20 for war and 55 for trade, each, with a grand total of 400 for war and 1,100 for trade. Much more plausible, while still more than sufficiently impressive, all told.

The question of materials for all those ships is solved thus:
+ hundreds of years to grow new trees
+ tons and tons of trees from the sun-people, who don't want trees because they're fire-hazards
+ buying trees from other nations across the very, very large landmass that is Arcona.

As for exploration, that is still a concern, at least for me.
One suggestion was that, before now, the Shienienarans did not feel secure enough, even if they did know about the western continent, to venture that way. There might be danger, after all, and even though Talonia isn't far away, it's still far enough to be quite costly, when there's already a finely workable and lucrative arrangement going on for them in Arcona.

I would argue, however, that the same obsessions of grandeur that caused them to build such ridiculously enormous ships and acquire so much wealth would be the same kind of curiousity/ambition that would inspire them to explore new trade routes. Especially when the western continent IS, actually, quite close by.

So there needs to be a stronger reason, I think, why the Shienienarans--and anyone else with ships, for that matter--are only now beginning to take interest in (or learn of) the western lands.

What Kalon said in this post is what we agreed upon for how to resolve the issue. I would also point out that there are explanations for the numbers of ships and the building materials. Ryona seemed to be completely fine with the compromise we all reached. Also I did reduce the number of ships total by 1/4 and made most of the ships just merchant ones, albiet large ones.

Also I think you might need to reread the golem information as they aren't summoned.

I really hope that is satisfying to everyone as we spent several hours hammering out a compromise of things.

[Guest]

How do the Shienienarans afford not only to buy all of these trees but also to fund their enormous navy? No economy is entirely self-contained, not when they are trading with several other nations. How is their wealth generated? What services do they offer to bring in money? Your telling me where they get the materials, but how? I'm sorry if this is nitpicky, but your asking for a whole lot of ships. Instead of just handing over the largest navy ever seen, I want you to understand how it works, if it can work at all.

According to your character sheet, you have some mines (which would be required for the metal parts of the ships, construction of cities, etc.), some forests (which would be entirely used up in the construction of your ships), some farmlands (most of which would be needed for your 20 city states as well as those who man your ships), and fishing (which, like the farms, would be needed to supply your people). Of all of those, only limited amounts of food could be exported through trade. If you were mining things like diamonds, perhaps that could fund it, but as of now you haven't stated that. And I would only allow so much of that, as flooding the market with diamonds lowers their value, making them worthless when it comes to funding your fleet.

And crafting or summoning doesn't change the issue of golems manning your fleets. They may supply part of the manpower, but not all of it. It still requires a lot of actual people. Those are large ships, and they can't be controlled by a skeleton crew. The real issue in my opinion is the funding. Where does their money come from?

[Gadreille]

Ryona seemed to be completely fine with the compromise we all reached.

I was fine with stating that Sretin and Shienienaran had been trading for a long time. I did say to expect a post from Silvone in the morning regarding the issue.

[Dax]

I just decided I was to step into this. I got into a PM with Raptor and at first I really didn't want to get involved in all of this, but then I did and I came up with this solution.

Hopefully this is the solution to end ALL THINGS... (Concerning this crisis)

So here it is. I was thinking on the logistics and practicality of having an entire fleet composed of huge Chinese treasure ships and I thought that that, at its base, was completely impossible. Also, seeing how a lot of the bickering around this subject has revolved around the numbers and potential invincibility of those huge ships, I just thought up of an easy solution. Reduce the numbers of the huge ships dramatically, but only reduce the total number slightly, replacing them with normal boats.

Here is the composition of each navy of a Viceroy:

20 Huge Chinese Treasure Ships (Of which 10 are armed and used for potential war/defense)

50 Normal sized frigates (Of which 25 are armed and used for potential war/defense)

70 ships in total for each Viceroyalty

This seriously downsizes the threat of an ‘impossible to break blockade’ and lowers the already lowered number of 1500 ships down to 1400. This, in all reality, fixes the problem of financing, logistics, etc.

There is my solution. What do you all think of it?

[Guest]

What dax says looks good, and it was discussed with me already so.

Since you asked on this the Shienienarans make a great deal of their money functioning as essentially a middleman trading service. Their ships are huge, well built and well maintained. They will carry anyone's goods to almost any destination and that is a valid way to make a profit. Especially as they guarantee safe travel of the goods or they just take enough payment for provisions from the journey. They also are classic mercantile people, they buy food where food is cheap then take it to places where that food is in high demand and sell it for lots of money. The same with other products. They also rent out their golems for certain projects to other people and create many luxury items with their craftsmen. Not all build the Golems after all. Yes some of the mines produce diamonds and other things of that nature, especially useful for them as crystals are used to make golems as well.

[Guest]

Alright, sounds good to me. Thanks for working it all out with me. Of course, this may not be the end of it, depending on what others think. But I'm good.

[Kalon Ordona II]

They probably also get a lot of wealth and food by transporting things from Sretin to the rest of Arcona at large. As well as being a bridge for exotic materials, animals, and miscellany, back and forth.

It will have to be assumed, though--and it is a logical assumption--that the Shienienarans virtually own and monopolize the seas of Arcona. Pretty much the only thing other nations can do in the sea is fish or obtain underwater resources like sponges or sunken treasure.


Edit:
3000th POST! WOOOOOT!

[Shadow Moonseye]

I'm still iffy on the number there, because that's still a shit ton of wood, but I'll be fine with that as its better than 2000 ships the size of Chinese treasure ships.

[Guest]

Hey, Loki, could you check the blurbs under the links in the Khajiiti section of the Sentient Species and Races of the Information thread? I just want to make sure I didn't butcher anything, since I was paraphrasing the immense amounts of information you have contained within

[Kalon Ordona II]

I just realized, we have another inconsistency to worry about: proximity.
The continents are situated near each other such that the Shienienaran coast is in the wrong place. As it stands, it is almost compulsory upon the Shienienarans to trade not with Arcona, but with Talonia. The distance is shorter by half. It is roughly 6,000 miles to Suituria, Arcona, and only 3,000 miles to Valinyx, Talonia.

I mentioned this to Raptorman and he suggested I come up with a solution. I propose the following: a shift of location such that the Shienienarans are the dominant force of trade for Arcona, as they are meant to be, and not Talonia. Otherwise historical contact with Talonia will exceed the desired limits I perceive from the GM's. I have drawn up a quick map to illustrate a plausible switch in location, with current in blue and suggested in red.

[Gadreille]

I'll need to double check with Silvone, but as long as it is about the same size (perhaps reducing the red section a bit) and the neighboring nations don't have any concerns (cue fluesopp and the end, if you do) then it should be OK.

[Loki]

Hey, Loki, could you check the blurbs under the links in the Khajiiti section of the Sentient Species and Races of the Information thread? I just want to make sure I didn't butcher anything, since I was paraphrasing the immense amounts of information you have contained within

Looks like you got everything covered. I'll probably send you an update with a few more abilities to include in that section in the next couple of days. What I currently have is for a majority of the population, but the larger Khajiiti that are based off big cats use their illusion abilities in a different manner.

[Guest]

The current red section of claimed land is quite large compared to what had been claimed before, especially if you include the mountains and forests of the northern shore. I suppose I can understand and accept the size of the land claim based on the fact that the Shienienarans would be the primary trading force in Arcona, as well as the primary naval force I assume.

Honestly, I just think that the easternmost stretch of red shouldn't extend south into that peninsula, because that largely cuts off that space from another claimer. If you want to extend it that far into it, I would like an explanation of what geographical landmark or boundary prevents them from simply taking the entire peninsula.

I personally think their lands should end with the mountain chain as indicated on the map, which is also the same distance as the north stretch of coastline just above it. But if everyone is fine with it the way it is, then I'll go with it.

[Guest]

Thats fine I suppose if you want to take that part out.

[Guest]

Important!!!!!!!!!!!

It has come to my attention that the members Raptorman and The Reaperman, which incidentally are the same person, have intentionally manipulated the rules of Emoria to create unfair advantages over the other role-players. With evidence that can be cited by the moderators of Emoria, Raptorman created an alternate account on FOG, and using it created another world-space in Emoria, which is against the rules. Ryona and I have from the beginning stood by the rule of one world-space per character. The only exception has been stewarding a world-space for an absent member once that world-space has become an integral part of the story. As of now, there are only a few of those. Beyond that, he has taken advantage of me, as the creator of the role-play, my wife, who has helped me manage this role-play and keep it running so smoothly, as well as every other role-player in Emoria. What he did was not in the best interest of anyone but himself.

The punishment for this action is the removal of Raptorman/The Reaperman from the role-play of Emoria. As I have no authority beyond this role-play, that is all I can do. I will also be deleting the world-spaces created by these two (or one) player(s).

Anyone who has been developing histories with any of these world-spaces will need to redo their work. I do apologize for this, but I feel that it is far better for the role-play as a whole to just get rid of these world-spaces and let new members start over.

I apologize to Lady Despair, who may or may not be simply another one of Raptorman’s alternate accounts used for the purpose of bending one of Emoria’s few, and core, rules. However, we have no way of determining whether you are indeed a separate person, and because of the fact that you require Raptorman’s own computer to post, by association you will be under suspicion and carefully watched. Though I have no way to enforce this, I ask that you leave Raptorman out of the decision making process of your world-space and future posts in Emoria. Also, you have the option of leaving the role-play, a choice that at this point you may want to consider.

[Dax]

Well I have to say I am disapointed. I can't even start to explain how much right now.

That's all I have to say.

[Buzzwulf]

how does this decision effect the stewards of the mountains? based on your post, I got the impression that you would rather just toss out all the work, while Plague and I have already started some very in-depth work on the revision of the mountains.

I mean, I don't really know if you want them dropped entirely, or if it's still a green light for revision. Could you please clarify?

[Gadreille]

All things regarding Morgarath will stay, and you guys can use or revise as you please. The information being tossed involves his new race, not the old one, as well as the Reaperman's new race.

[Buzzwulf]

ok, thanks. I was just a little confused.

[Chainlinc3]

I am quite disappointed in this, as well as in raptor. I may not have *liked* raptor in the past, but I certainly didn't think he was a bad person. Now, I'm afraid that even that bit of faith appears misplaced.

And, Arcona needs a new plot. -_-

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